The Definitive Oil Capacity Thread!

[wistech]

I dont think anyone has pointed out that if you let neglect the oil pump repair and allow the engine to keep draining the frame oil into the bottom of the engine the scavange pump has to pump all that oil out of the crankcase ,into the frame ,back through the oil inlet, pump and filter before it gets back to the crank and more importantly the camshafts. How long do you think the cams are running without any oil before all that happens ? 30 seconds ? a minute?
I am not a fan of 3000rpm dry starts but I am sure its not healthy for the camshafts and wrist pin. With the cam cover with windows we could see there is quite delay on a properly functioning oiling system . I dont have any engines with oiling problems so I dont know how long they run dry with leaking checkball.

An if anyone remembers the Speed incendent a few years back ended up cutting all my dipsticks off and never check oil level with them as they cannot be trusted.
I go by sighting the frame hole and keeping the oil level where it is at at 1.5 to 2 quarts.
There is a reason for having a low and full level. Its to keep within a range that will keep the engine oil doing its job of lubing and carrying heat away. You need a certain amount of capacity in the frame to let the frame absorb the heat .
Do whatever you want but I will never warranty an engine that runs low on oil.

[Happyboy]

Well, that is why you run a high quality oil. The oil that stays up in the head should be sufficient for startup if you run a good oil. Most motors have that problem and we don't see a pandemic from it. Redline for me thank you.

[MyCannibal]

I bet I got the longest dipstick!!!...sorry...had to.

[thedeatons]

Red Line for me also...

[Canniboomer]

Yo James. You are my friend, and we have ridden together, and we look forward to meeting up again this summer.
You guys are very sharp indeed, and have a great riding group assembled by now. But, I simply have to take some time here now, to offer up some overdue comments:

QUOTE (thedeatons @ May 28 2008, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....Our rides are primarily in the dunes, for three days at a time, typically once per month. The dunes are a super-harsh environment, and are very taxing on the engines. Everything needs to be spot on regarding the map while riding hard in the dunes, further proving this method as acceptable.

That sounds like a good reason to use the maximum amount of oil -- we would hope your machines are carrying more, not less oil than the rest of the world's Cannondales.

QUOTE

...The manual says oil capacity is 1.5 qts.

Not true,... all 3 ATV Owners Manuals clearly state 1.7 qts....that would be the definitive oil capacity.

QUOTE

Point #1: ... Anyone who has ever pulled an engine knows that some oil stays inside the sump no matter how far over you tip the quad. The lines can also retain some oil, as can the frame.

True,... but have you tried boosting the rear? -- that can extract hidden oil from the right rear frame section and back into the sump via the cross-hose to the starter cover. Oil can linger in there after a puking incident, and would limit the venting capacity after the refill. Also, you will get the dirty 2 ounces or so that is ponding at the bottom of the crank, in the curved bowl there.....just a 30-second boost is enough.

QUOTE

.... Adding 1.5 qts to a frame/engine that did not release the entire 1.5 qts during the oil change would instantly throw the oil level over capacity, causing an oil puking, potentially hydrolocking position, due to too much oil being in the crankcase, under the piston.

Opinion,... not fact.... All 4-strokes will consume some oil, and should be allowed to vent "something",... particularly in such harsh riding conditions as you cite.

QUOTE

Refilling the frame with 1 qt after an oil change always places the oil level halfway up the dipstick (between the bottom and the "full" line), which is within the operating range of the engine's oil capacity per the downloadable 2002 Owner's Manual. Adding another .5 qts has always resulted in the oil level being at the top of the dipstick (where the line is), meaning the frame is "full". This in turn has always resulted in an oil puking, potentially hydrolocking position, as mentioned above.

.... Always?, we thought you were always adding only 1 quart?, and doing so, and telling others to do so,....for many years by now. You have only recently even mentioned the dipstick, or even paying any attention to it. Whenever I think about it, I snip off the bottom 3/8" of the dipstick anyway, so it cannot restrict the crossflow to the left frame at high rpms. The dipsticks are consistently made, and I have never mentioned otherwise -- but I don't trust them either. New guys will usually tend to overfill when trying to follow the owners manual. We had actually started suggesting 1.5 qt refills to prevent accidental overfills,... not to cause them! Oil delivery to the frame, and pumping out of the frame can vary by machine -- it's not an exact science, and levels will vary when the machines are shut down -- with the exact same amount of oil inside. Adding a fixed amount of oil after a consistent drain is more exacting. You guys have been doing one quart, and plenty of others are doing 1.5 quart.

QUOTE

.... After the first oil change cdsracer refilled with 1.5 qts, and promptly found the quad in a hydrolocked state. He reduced the oil capacity to 1 qt, and the hydrolocking problem subsided. The quad has been running using this 1 qt refill method for 6 years!

I would agree,...a leaky checkball will not leak enough oil to cause any hydrolock problem, since there is not enough oil in the frame to begin with. So, is that a solution to live with for so long?...and then tell the next new guy to do? We can all run our vehicles with 3 quarts instead of 5 quarts of oil......they will probably continue to run for years also, and maybe the camcovers will never leak. Are you going to tell others to do it?, to solve any kind of problem?

QUOTE

This is my proof of why this method works. Feel free to dispute this method, but I suggest you only do so while providing proof of why this method DOESN'T work. Without proof your "facts" mean nothing.

I think that we have collectively already disputed this method. Thank you for granting us permission to challenge it in your thread.

[67z400]

I love what Dave has to say. He is always full of great knowledge.

Here is my method: I usually drain my oil after it is nice and warm. I let each bolt drain for at least 15 minutes. Then I tilt my quad a bit and try to get as much as I can out of the frame. I then fill it up with 1 quart. Then I start it up and let it idle for about a minute. I then shut it off and check the dip stick. After I review the dipstick I add as needed, starting and checking the quad/oil until it meets manufacturers specs.

[Glamis#2]

I'm not really sure what the exact amount of oil we should use.But I will say that when bought my first Dale that I had no problems with it puking oil untilI changed the oil and put in 1.5 qts. and then the puking began.I had met James at Whincheter Bay OR. and gave me the info to this website along with his phone#.He told me about the 1 qt. tried it and problem solved!
Their may be a debate about the issue but I can say that this solved my problem with no affects since.I really appreciated his advice then and now and will continue this method in both my Dales.

[wanablaze]

I always drain the oil when its hot. If I change the filter and oil, my moto takes 1.75 qts to be at the full mark (where I like it).

[ozarkdaler]

1.5 on all of my rides and no issues.

[thedeatons]

Good points Boomer. I am glad you mentioned those. It is true 27 and I nitpick at each other, and I must admit that I bring it on sometimes:)

Sorry to misquote you on dispstick length, I could have sworn you said that. I stand corrected.

I admit this thread got out of hand. Mostly my fault.

At this point I am suspecting my check ball after the helpful information that 27 posted. Here is what I have noticed during oil changes:

I drain the frame, top first then bottom rear, and barely anything comes out of there. Then I drain the sump and get a lot of oil, every time. Our quads typically sit for ~30-45 days between dune trips, so I am thinking we either have leakage due to time, or leakage due to defective check ball seating.

I'll be honest with you guys, I do NOT plan to pull my engine AGAIN to fix this issue. I am officially taking a rest from pulling engines for a while, but I would like to eventually investigate this.... I admit, it's pure laziness, and I have no excuse.

I would like a definitive write up with pictures of how to go about correcting this problem starting from step one, "removing the epoxy", etc....

Sorry to cause all the trouble BUT, it seems that I learned something in the process, so no regrets... It's just a shame that it took a thread like this to suck this information out of some of the "experts".... sigh...