Flywheel issues, what exactly happens?

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wayneschofield
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#1 Post by wayneschofield »

Ok, along with a heap of other stuff to try to create solutions for I have turned my attention to the flywheel.... blink.gif

Now I haven't actually had a problem with one but it seems other people have... So what, exactly, IS the problem? unsure.gif

If it is one of just spinning on the shaft then lapping the wheel onto the shaft with grinding paste will probably fix it. Add to that installing a warmed-up flywheel onto a cooled crank shaft to give it some added 'bite' without having to rely on the nut pulling it harder into the taper.

Further to that using some Nord-lock washers would help if there is any indication of the nut backing off causing a loss of tension.

Machining some off the periphery (but not right where the crank sensor runs on the phonic wheel) is going to lower the polar moment of inertia and would help reduce the accelerative loads, especially at higher RPMs, so this would help reduce the torque demands on the 'lock' the taper provides.

The keyway is ONLY a locator and offers little or nothing to help with torque transmission capacity, so a bigger key would not help. Nor would two keys, or a pin etc.... If you don't believe this last statement test for yourself how much torque it takes to shear a key when the flywheel is not quite tight.... 3/5ths of sod-all is how much!

The taper, once tightened on correctly, takes up virtually all the torque loads.




If the mode of failure is one of the flywheel coming apart from itself, the Steel separating from the Aluminium, then this would not be helped by improving the 'lock' onto the crank. It would, however, be helped by lightening the periphery as mentioned above, as this is beyond the highly-stressed area within the flywheel and would lead to less stress being exerted on the composite parts' 'interface'. wacko.gif

If the failure appears to start at a stress raiser on the surface of the flywheel then some de-flashing and shot-peening would help significantly.

If the failure starts internally at the composite parts interface, and lightening and shot-peening is proven still not to be an adequate solution, then a complete new flywheel must be made.....

There is some room for a slightly larger diameter section for more support around the taper, in the middle of the stator if a little is machined from the ID of the alloy stator locator ring. This would make the flywheel less likely to stretch and lose tension on the taper, especially just at the key-groove where it is presently quite thin....

The phonic wheel is no problem at all to make, and different formats such as 36-1 or 60-2 would make it easy to use an alternative management system which would make 'live' dyno mapping more accessable than at present (emulating the 56 TSOP flash EPROM our MC1000s use is a nightmare and means 'scrapping' an ECU to comit it to 'development' duties ....)

The only thing that might prove less-easy would perhaps be the magnetic ring for the stator.... I have no idea how to go about doing that bit (yet). It seems there are manets placed N-S-N-S going around the inside but, beyond that I don't know.... unsure.gif


So, COME ON, how do these things fail and does anyone have any busted ones for me to inspect? Or pictures even.....? wink.gif

Idahocannibal
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#2 Post by Idahocannibal »

The main failure is the aluminum spinning on the steel hub, people have been drilling holes halfway into the steel hub and the other half into the aluminum then pressing pins into the holes. That seems to help, but I have had a pinned flywheel still spin on me. So I had one reinforced a bit different but I havent had a chance to really test it out yet.

wayneschofield
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#3 Post by wayneschofield »

OK, thanks for that.

Anyone have any pics of the broken bits?

thedeatons
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#4 Post by thedeatons »

You know how when you look at the flywheel the woodruff groove is located at the "C" in Cannondale? The failed ones have the woodruff groove located in a different place, such as the "N" in Cannondale... It is that simple. The flywheels are spinning because of people hitting the brakes in midair to correct the angle of their jumping dangle, if you know what I mean... That part has been proven. It has happened twice in our group, and I know others close by that have had it happen to them too. You might get with Canniboomer on this, as he has some experience with the current fix. The current fix seems to help a bit, but I think it may need to be taken to the next level. The next level in my opinion would be to weld the screws that Boomer is inserting to the steel section of the flywheel, on both the inside and the outside of the flywheel. We have plans to do that, but have not gotten around to doing it yet.

wayneschofield
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#5 Post by wayneschofield »

Ah, so much the same as my Jet-Skis used to do if I kept the throttle pinned when landing off jumps. The motor would rev out then be rapidly slowed by the sudden in-rush of water and the flywheel would fail, much like hitting the brakes mid-air I suppose.

The first signs was that the power would drop off badly as the timing went retarded...

A proper fix has got to be a new, one piece, flywheel then folks.

The material will have to be ferrous, so that the phonic wheel will work, but must not take on any magnetism itself over time or we'll start to get miss-trigering. I hope the charging magnets don't interfere with the crank sensor signal....

I'll need to have a dummy shaft made to balance them on too.

How many do you estimate we'll need to make?

I guess it should be quite a few as the part should need no 'development' like the cams and decomp mech etc, so an initial run of fifty would be sensible enough to get the costs down...

What do you think?

thedeatons
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#6 Post by thedeatons »

I like 50.... good number.... The only thing is that right now we have about 12 just in my area alone that have undergone the Boomer fix for $30, and until they fail I think you will have a difficult time convincing everyone to upgrade. Know what I mean? Now, when they fail, then it will be a no-brainer, assuming the costs are equivalent to a new standard flywheel, which is ~$100. Let us know what your thoughts are...

cannondale27
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#7 Post by cannondale27 »

Other factor is wieght.I wont buy one if its heavier than stock.Probably not needed but I wonder how well Titanium would work?We dynoed one without magnets in it and the quickness of rev was noticably increased.Stock wieght is fine though.I would pay $100 also and buy 3.

thedeatons
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#8 Post by thedeatons »

Agrees about the weight... I certainly do NOT want one lighter, as mine revs quick as it is.... They worked the weight out pretty well on these... If possible perhaps you could publicly provide the CAD drawing for the new flywheels, in case another run is needed in years to come...

Happyboy
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#9 Post by Happyboy »

Hitting the brakes in the air isn't the only reason they fail. They just wear out and michelle and brian have had alot fail coming out of corners. There really are alot of factors that have played in to their failing. Some of us are wondering if balance issues are causing some peoples to fail more often than others.

2000ex
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#10 Post by 2000ex »

I would think that is a good number as well. I have 3 machines and have not spun one yet, but with a few of the race motors I just built it is only going to be a matter of time. Weren't the Falicons in particular having a higher failure rate?

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