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John Thomas · #101 Post by **John Thomas** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:54 pm

Happyboy you should take your comments back as all my idea were intended to be thought provoking and intuitive. And look I don't care what efi should do. When you put a FCR carb on a cdale it becomes a much fast and smoother bike. EFI should do many things but the cdale system does not produce all that it can. And no it is not a perfect EFI system by an mean or dillusion. Point being that the efi system should produce more hp and still have all the other benefits. Right now we are getting slightly less hp with all the benefits. EFI can be more efficient when applied correctly. Yes the manifold needs to be redesigned to a flatslide manifold. In a downdraft configuration like an FCR carb. Also Ive had two dales with carbs and they walked away from any other dale I have ever rode with and that was alot as my buddy owned a cdale shop. Ported, stroked it didn't matter as my motor was stock with a carb and the rev limiter set at 13200

John Thomas · #102 Post by **John Thomas** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:03 pm

I would have liked to get a 45mm FCR on there but you really have to modify the air box and intake track. A 40mm fits right on. I figure with the 45mm you could get a couple more hp with a built engine. Should get 5 to 6. You get 4 with a 40mm on the dyno. with the right mods big hp awaits. I had the fastest cdale on the west coast for 2 years until I parted them out. Probably should have kept one running. Smoked every bike I come up against until I met a ported, aftermarked cams and stroked to 450 yfz monster. Smoked My *** and all else.

jacobw · #103 Post by **jacobw** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:07 pm

you think the rev limiter being set at 13k might give it a slight advantage?? I am sure they are ways to make the dale faster and smoother but the carb is not going to be as responsive as the efi. If the efi could be made that much better I am sure cannondale would have changed it everything on the bike was made to be top notch and the motor is a top notch motor with the proper updates. Its a complete package! why would cannondale riders want to go to a carb just to be a bit faster when our machines are already faster than 99 percent of the competition. Speed means nothing when you can only ride so fast in the conditions you can go 90 on a motocross or hare scramble track. John are you and winky in cahoots since that seems to be what he wants to do is put a carb on a efi machine? So you made a carbed dale go faster on the top end ever thought of running a hotter map and making the efi system a little hotter? You can only make a carb perform so far. A efi system can be tuned to work in a variety of conditions flawlessly! If you want to go faster put a carb on your dale!:confused: LOL

John Thomas · #104 Post by **John Thomas** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:15 pm

I never sent out shots at cdale owner. Im intersted in the efi system and how to make the system atleast put out what the top of the line carbs can do. I have extensive knowledge of the histories of the companies that cdale used to make the components. Cdale didn't make many of the components in the efi system. The australian government had the company bankupt and in storage. Cdale bought old already constructed, crude efi systems. Any yes the cpu is a huge addition. Im more getting at the other components in the system. Like I said examine a snowmobile efi system and you will understand what I am saying. The EFI wiring harness on a 6 cylinder car is more compact. You could loose 4-6 lbs on the system easily. A larger throttle body made from billet 7075 would be lighter at any size. It would use thinner walls. The question I still have is that with the carb producing more hp there is definantly a flaw in the efi or poor intake design, probably a combination of the two. How to fix and where to pinpoint the limiting factors?

John Thomas · #105 Post by **John Thomas** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:25 pm

I have spoke with Jim or what you guys call big winky. He had the same results. Any type of motor build would produce more hp with an FCR carb specifially. I have used nearly every map made. Plus custom maps made in shop. South bay, big winkys maps, nacs, all the dirt bike maps, non felt nearly as smooth as what the carb produced. It really made the power smooth and linear. Very nice and perfect. Plus the idle came down a bit. Smoother but much harder hit starting at a lower rpm. What efi should do does not match what the cdale's engine characeristics are. If you don't believe me call Jim at diamond racing he has his own opinion on the suitation. Dont quote me for him or vice versa.

jacobw · #106 Post by **jacobw** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:30 pm

QUOTE

[ If you don't believe me call Jim at diamond racing he has his own opinion on the suitation. Dont quote me for him or vice versa. [/B]

So what charachteristics does the dale engine have that the efi system cannont provide to the dale engine?? BTW winky is full of himself

John Thomas · #107 Post by **John Thomas** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:31 pm

The carb is more responsive than the efi system because the hp kicks in at a lower rpm. It is very simple. The efi does not do all that you think it does just because it is efi! Efi systems are supose to be more responsive and are in most case, this not being one of them. Open your efi tracked minds and listen. I will use anything that is more productive and efficient. In this case a FCR carb! If I still had the set up running I would dyno it again and show you the read out. You would go into cdale pain.

jacobw · #108 Post by **jacobw** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:41 pm

I have never rode an engine that had as much throttle response as a cdale not evern a 60hp modded banshee feels like the dale repsonse. I have a hard time grasping a FCR carb will have even anything close to the EFI systems we have in throttle response. It could have but its not like we need more power we have power out the wazoo add a falicon and 450 piston and you will be heading toward the sky and you dont even have to have any ported heads or hotter cams or even a hotter map. I am having a hard time grasping the concept of the carb will put out more power I dont see the 5.0 mustangs producing 2500 hp with carbs I do see them producing 2500 hp with fuel injection and turbos and superchargers and intercoolers. :confused:

Happyboy · #109 Post by **Happyboy** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:50 pm

John,

First off, you were attacking rather than informing. So no, I will not retract what I said. You came about this the wrong way and I will stick to my guns.

Secondly, you are talking about 1 carb being better than our EFI. Thats cool, becuase there is always something better out there, just have to find it. Our system is not the best in the world. But, our cheap EFI is better than 95%+ of carb systems out there. Best improvement to have would be an O2 sensor and have the CPU recalculate itself based on that. I would still go back and say that the reason the FCR is better would be because of airflow, not fuel delivery. But, no way to prove that either way.

Now, like I said above, if you want to throw out ideas on how to get more out of the throttle body or injectors then put up a thread in the R&D section or in the open forum and throw out some ideas. People will act on them just to see if you are right. Coming out in a thread and saying the EFI is old and antiquated and your FCR is better is a joke. All you will get back is negativity, unless that was your goal anyways. Now, end this pissing contest and move on. Becuase with no proof you can't win an argument.

And don't throw Winky around, he isn't a very popular guy around here.

jacobw · #110 Post by **jacobw** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:53 pm

well said!!!:clap: :clap: :head: