1. The straw man was the car bomb analogy. You set up a scenario in which you could illustrate the point that you were trying to make - that no order comes from chaos. In your analogy, it appears correct, and therefore by alleging that no discernible order comes from that scenario, you conclude the same must hold true for the larger scenario of the big bang.
2. Not sure about the expanding contracting thing, but the unifying theory now is M-Theory, which united the five superstring theories that preceded it. M-Theory is still a work in progress, but it works. 12 dimensions, and the possibility of parallel universes. I am no physicist, but it's very fascinating. According to
9. those much smarter than I, M-Theory can shows mathematically that the big bang happened, because it overcomes what is called "Planck density". Regular physics could not move past this density, which is roughly equivalent to stuffing the matter of 100 billion galaxies into the nucleus of a single atom. None of the superstring theories could do that alone.
3. In other words, this universe had a beginning, but according to M-Theory, it is one of multiple, perhaps infinite other universes, which may have different laws of physics. There is math on this, but it is out of my league. The point of this is that although our universe had a definate "beginning", time existed before our universe, as there are other universes out there.
4. I'll try the car bomb thing again. It doesn't matter how large the parts are. In the case of the car bomb, because our perspective is at the small scale, it appears that the matter ejected by the explosion causes any material expelled to "fall back" to earth, the matter involved is coalescing due to gravity. Same principal as that of a larger scale. For instance, when a supergiant star goes supernova, it explodes after swelling to many thousands of times it's original size. It ejects particulate matter into space. Some of that matter has the energy and velocity required to escape the pull of the gravity of the matter that is left where the star was. Perhaps a lot of it does. However, much of it falls back into itself because of the gravity that that matter posesses. In the case of a smaller star, the result is a white or brown dwarf. In the case of a larger star, a black hole may result.
5. You are correct, when you say that nothing is "created" due to an explosion. Nothing is ever created. All the matter that has ever existed will always exist. Nothing was created as part of the big bang either, the matter involved was there when the bang happened, it was just relocated, then interacted to form the planets, stars, and ultimately everything else that is comprised of matter. Matter is constantly reformed. The iron in our bodies, and all heavy elements, is created in stars, generally when the die and go supernova. In the beginning, there was only a soup of primordial matter, the most simple elements didn't form until 500,000 to 1 million years after the big bang event. Stars begain igniting around 200 million years after, giving them 199 million years or so for them to coalesce and begin thermonuclear reactions. In the cores of these stars, and as they went supernova and died, the heavier elements were created, allowing planets and matter as we know it to form.
6. Another story - our moon was formed when a large asteroid, perhaps 1/4 to 1/2 the size of earth, slammed into the earth. This created a chain of events which saw the ejecta from the impact being sent into space. Some of this got away, some fell back to earth, and some stayed in orbit. The stuff that stayed in orbit coalesced and became our moon. Now, I know you're a sharp guy, so you're going to ask why Saturn's rings haven't become another moon. Good question. Imagine a moon whose orbit is slowly spiraling in taking the moon closer and closer to the planet. As the moon comes closer to the planet, the tidal forces stretch the moon more and more, deforming it. At some point the strength of the forces deforming the moon is stronger than the internal forces that keep the moon held together, and the moon is torn apart, broken into pieces. The distance from the planet at which this happens is called the Roche limit. Were the internal forces of the moon holding it together strong enough to keep it from breaking apart, it would eventually fall, and aggregate with it's larger partner.
7. My point here is that it doesn't matter how BIG the particulates involved are. As long as they have mass, they have gravity, and will coalesce. Even in a lopsided event like a speck of dust vs. the earth, both objects have gravity, and that is what brings them together. As i said earlier - it is only our perspective makes us perceive that the ejecta from our small scale explosion "falls to earth" Two specks of dust in a vacuum, unimpeded by any other forces, would eventually come together. Those two specks of dust would have slightly more gravity, and would attract more specks. soon, 100, 1000, 1,000,000; 100,000,000,000,000 specks of dust come together, they have some real pull (pun intended) and after a few million years, we're in business.
8. Anyway, truth is, I believe something along the lines of what you described, perhaps even in 6 days, give or take 13.7 billion years.
I'll finish with a good quote:
9. "What I really want to know is, how many different ways can God make a universe?" -Albert Einstein
-Marc "There is No Spoon" S.
Marc,
I have placed bold numbers above in an attempt to keep track of things. 1. I concede the straw man point. If given enough time that the Laws of Physics take over. Here is the rub, how much time? LOL
2. I agree those are some Theories that have yet to be played out. Side note: Mathematically I can prove I'm the Pope.
3. Multiply Universes and Multiply dimensions - If those are true it would make rational conduct of life impossible, because you could explain away anything, no matter how improbable - by postulating an infinite number of other universes.
ex.If you were dealing cards in a poker game and each time you dealt yourself four aces, you couldn't be accused of cheating, no matter how improbable the situation. You could merely point out that in an infinite ensemble of universes, there will occur a universe in which every time a person deals, he deals four aces to himself -therefore -
Lucky Me!!! - I just happen to be in that universe.
Other universes out there - do we have that kind of space? (Pun intended)
4. Agreed in the current time we see the effects of those explosions and the formation of things from a while ago.
5. "All the matter that has ever existed will always exist." So where did the material and energy come from? Note: The Bible say God created it and the last book (revelation) says that all of it will pass away.
6. The moon story - I have heard several stories over the last 44 years about why we have a moon. Captured asteroid, impact, spin off, etc. We actually don't know, do we?
Note: The Bible says that God created it there.
7. I agree, natural laws will control the outcome after the creation of said laws and matter in which to act upon. Would you agree that a Supernatural creator could effect those natural laws?
8. Man you need a better calender, lots of disparity between 6 days and 13.7 billion years. Some Estimate the Earth at 5,000,000,000 years old. Most of the time "Natural Process" would be used just to get it to the correct temperature for life to even begin. some have estimated that the time gap between the earth reaching the correct temp and the first emergence of life was only about 400,000,000 years ago. That is not much time for a chemical evolution to take place let alone the complexity to form.
9. Answer: One if he could have done it differently would it had the same outcome he intended.
Thanks for all the information, most of which we actually agree upon.
I have recently stated reading "A Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel, He was an Atheist, journalist and lawyer. His investigative work lead him to believe in God. In this book he covers a lot of what we are discussing and I have used (Shamelessly) some of the information provided.
I feel strongly that for some people reading this thread that by going though this book a lot of your questions will be covered more completely and accurately than what I can provide. I am willing to put my money where my mouth (Keyboard) is. I will purchase and send copies to 10 people who are interested in reading it. It's a $15.00 book and I have limited resources so I cannot get one for everyone. The only request I make is that as men/women of our words that you will read it and participate in discussion on it.
I will not share who wants a book so please PM me.
Thanks
Smitty
Could you elaborate?
tities - for example, the amount of usable energy in the universe, the difference in mass between protons and neutrons, the ratios of the fundamental forces of nature, and the proportion of matter to antimatter- that must be balanced to a mathematically infinitesimal degree for any life to be possible.
