Power Commander Group Buy
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cannondale27
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
We know that timing affects AFR. So going from Blaze which has less aggresive timing than X440s would affect AFR. I would not do that. Throttle sensitivity settings and such would all have same effect and wouldn't hurt a thing if changing maps. So just look at maps and stick to the ones that have same timing and fuel or make maps for the PowerCommander to match the maps your using in the Cannondale ECU.
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thedeatons
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Okay, so here is an interesting thought. Most of us know that the Cannibal map has VERY advanced timing to compensate for the Toaster's terribleness.
With this in mind, if a Cannibal (or Speed, or Glamis, which also used the toaster) rider were to buy a Power Commander, then have it "mapped" at a dyno tuner, his or her timing table would be unaffected, and therefore very advanced. This could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on which pipe they are using and their overall setup. Would you agree?
Cannondale never had the chance to iron out the low end timing/fueling on these bikes, which is probably why Aceracer's low end was off. They needed to run best at race pace. If you look at the timing table the ignition timing is WAY advanced on the low end, even at idle and during startup, which is unneccessary. This is why taking timing out of the bottom end helps with startup so much, and helps the twitchyness of the dirtbikes, because there is so much there to begin with. Know what I mean?
It seems as if someone would want either a Moto or Blaze map to start with, so the timing table isn't trying to compensate for a corked up Toaster. This would mean a Cannibal, Glamis, or Speed rider would still need to load a different Cannondale map into the Sagem for timing purposes, requiring Optimum software/D&M kit. Am I thinking of this the right way?
27-I didn't mean that they tune like we do, but that they have the same adjustment capabilities that we do with our D&M kits. I know they do the tuning differently on the dyno. More specifically, if you look at the Yoshimura EM-Pro (Engine Management Pro Kit) here are the adjustments using their "kit harness":
EM Pro FUNCTION WIRE HARNESS TYPE & APPLICABLE FUNCTION
KIT HARNESS(NOTE2)
FUEL ADJUSTMENT MAP
IGNITION TIMING ADJUSTMENT MAP 2MAP
ENGINE BRAKE CONTROL
MAXIMUM ENGINE REV STANDARD+500rpm
AUTO SHIFTER APPLICABLE (NOTE4)
(ADJUSTABLE IGNITION OFF TIMING)
PIT LANE SPEED LIMIT ADJUSTMENT
The Optimum software offers the majority of these changes already, Power Commander offers a few. Guaranteed this is what everyone in MotoGP and Superbike is using, every map is adjustable, with on the fly map select. Now there are new toys like traction control and gps controlled speed tracking, but the basic tuning software is very similar to our original stuff.
Once again, I like the idea of the Power Commander, and think this will be a great asset to the community. I am just pointing out that we already have cutting edge tuning software, some people just want push button tuning however, which is fine. To each their own:)
With this in mind, if a Cannibal (or Speed, or Glamis, which also used the toaster) rider were to buy a Power Commander, then have it "mapped" at a dyno tuner, his or her timing table would be unaffected, and therefore very advanced. This could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on which pipe they are using and their overall setup. Would you agree?
Cannondale never had the chance to iron out the low end timing/fueling on these bikes, which is probably why Aceracer's low end was off. They needed to run best at race pace. If you look at the timing table the ignition timing is WAY advanced on the low end, even at idle and during startup, which is unneccessary. This is why taking timing out of the bottom end helps with startup so much, and helps the twitchyness of the dirtbikes, because there is so much there to begin with. Know what I mean?
It seems as if someone would want either a Moto or Blaze map to start with, so the timing table isn't trying to compensate for a corked up Toaster. This would mean a Cannibal, Glamis, or Speed rider would still need to load a different Cannondale map into the Sagem for timing purposes, requiring Optimum software/D&M kit. Am I thinking of this the right way?
27-I didn't mean that they tune like we do, but that they have the same adjustment capabilities that we do with our D&M kits. I know they do the tuning differently on the dyno. More specifically, if you look at the Yoshimura EM-Pro (Engine Management Pro Kit) here are the adjustments using their "kit harness":
EM Pro FUNCTION WIRE HARNESS TYPE & APPLICABLE FUNCTION
KIT HARNESS(NOTE2)
FUEL ADJUSTMENT MAP
IGNITION TIMING ADJUSTMENT MAP 2MAP
ENGINE BRAKE CONTROL
MAXIMUM ENGINE REV STANDARD+500rpm
AUTO SHIFTER APPLICABLE (NOTE4)
(ADJUSTABLE IGNITION OFF TIMING)
PIT LANE SPEED LIMIT ADJUSTMENT
The Optimum software offers the majority of these changes already, Power Commander offers a few. Guaranteed this is what everyone in MotoGP and Superbike is using, every map is adjustable, with on the fly map select. Now there are new toys like traction control and gps controlled speed tracking, but the basic tuning software is very similar to our original stuff.
Once again, I like the idea of the Power Commander, and think this will be a great asset to the community. I am just pointing out that we already have cutting edge tuning software, some people just want push button tuning however, which is fine. To each their own:)
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thedeatons
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
No I get that... Very cool.
I'm just thinking that with a Cannibal, Speed, or Glamis map in your machine, then a different pipe, you are setting yourself up for preignition with that much timing advance. Preignition will cause your AFR to be off and is dangerous for the engine.
Now consider an expensive ported, cam timed, overbored engine with hyper-advanced Toaster timing. The Power Commander will tweak the fuel map to get the AFR dialed, but your hyper-advanced timing map will never change, potentially causing preignition, leading to engine failure.
Just a thought to consider. Perhaps Dynojet could address that with a multiple level timing retard feature. Did Dynojet even look at how advanced some of the timing tables are in the original Cannondale maps? I would think for liability purposes they would have selected a "baseline" Cannondale map that must be run with the Power Commander, to keep timing under control for all engine variations.
I mean, it wasn't that the Toaster "needed" the advanced timing, I think they did that to give some power back to the engine, because the can was so restrictive.
Know what I mean?
I'm just thinking that with a Cannibal, Speed, or Glamis map in your machine, then a different pipe, you are setting yourself up for preignition with that much timing advance. Preignition will cause your AFR to be off and is dangerous for the engine.
Now consider an expensive ported, cam timed, overbored engine with hyper-advanced Toaster timing. The Power Commander will tweak the fuel map to get the AFR dialed, but your hyper-advanced timing map will never change, potentially causing preignition, leading to engine failure.
Just a thought to consider. Perhaps Dynojet could address that with a multiple level timing retard feature. Did Dynojet even look at how advanced some of the timing tables are in the original Cannondale maps? I would think for liability purposes they would have selected a "baseline" Cannondale map that must be run with the Power Commander, to keep timing under control for all engine variations.
I mean, it wasn't that the Toaster "needed" the advanced timing, I think they did that to give some power back to the engine, because the can was so restrictive.
Know what I mean?
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speedracer
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
QUOTE (MyCannibal @ Jul 24 2008, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
afraid of the D&M?...D&M and Power Commander are two different things...
You know, like adjusting flow rate, hex code, ect. I have no desire to run way lean and fry an engine because I have no idea what im doing. Besides, all I would use it for (d&m) would be a tps adjustment, no desire to tinker with maps. At my age, these Dales are fast enough!
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thedeatons
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
Some of us are running even more advanced timing then the stock maps. I don't see how having a properly tuned afr is sudenly going to cause predetonation?
QUOTE (thedeatons @ Jul 24 2008, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No I get that... Very cool.
I'm just thinking that with a Cannibal, Speed, or Glamis map in your machine, then a different pipe, you are setting yourself up for preignition with that much timing advance. Preignition will cause your AFR to be off and is dangerous for the engine.
Now consider an expensive ported, cam timed, overbored engine with hyper-advanced Toaster timing. The Power Commander will tweak the fuel map to get the AFR dialed, but your hyper-advanced timing map will never change, potentially causing preignition, leading to engine failure.
Just a thought to consider. Perhaps Dynojet could address that with a multiple level timing retard feature. Did Dynojet even look at how advanced some of the timing tables are in the original Cannondale maps? I would think for liability purposes they would have selected a "baseline" Cannondale map that must be run with the Power Commander, to keep timing under control for all engine variations.
I mean, it wasn't that the Toaster "needed" the advanced timing, I think they did that to give some power back to the engine, because the can was so restrictive.
Know what I mean?
I'm just thinking that with a Cannibal, Speed, or Glamis map in your machine, then a different pipe, you are setting yourself up for preignition with that much timing advance. Preignition will cause your AFR to be off and is dangerous for the engine.
Now consider an expensive ported, cam timed, overbored engine with hyper-advanced Toaster timing. The Power Commander will tweak the fuel map to get the AFR dialed, but your hyper-advanced timing map will never change, potentially causing preignition, leading to engine failure.
Just a thought to consider. Perhaps Dynojet could address that with a multiple level timing retard feature. Did Dynojet even look at how advanced some of the timing tables are in the original Cannondale maps? I would think for liability purposes they would have selected a "baseline" Cannondale map that must be run with the Power Commander, to keep timing under control for all engine variations.
I mean, it wasn't that the Toaster "needed" the advanced timing, I think they did that to give some power back to the engine, because the can was so restrictive.
Know what I mean?
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cannondale27
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
QUOTE
Now consider an expensive ported, cam timed, overbored engine with hyper-advanced Toaster timing. The Power Commander will tweak the fuel map to get the AFR dialed, but your hyper-advanced timing map will never change, potentially causing preignition, leading to engine failure.
Wrong. You would have more preignition BEFORE tuning with PowerCommander.
Preingnition causes a loss in power and a lean AFR. When you tune the lean AFR out with PowerCommander you will get more power and LESS detonation.
It would only cause it if you were to go with a more aggressive timing Cannondale map than the one you have tuned PowerCommander for. Even then it is very rare. Our motors seem to be able to take quite a bit more timing than normal. Really nothing is different since when you change maps you really should dyno it again. EVEN NOW. All the maps were made for stock motors. So the added fuel in stock maps for timing isn't accurate with a modded motor anyway. Vast majority of people will never change the map in the ECU if it works good. I like my Map Select which uses 3 maps. But they are just W.F.O,TT(cut timing,TS), And drag map with 9500 rev limit. All those will work just fine with a PowerCommander and perfectly safe.
Deatons you are making this much more complicated than need be. The amount of motors with sure signs of detonation/preignition can be counted on one hand. Then eliminate the guys running crappy gas, running lean or overheating and you can knock that down even more. All the Cannondale maps have proven to be safe with common sense. A PowerCommander would only make them SAFER since tuning would be correct to match the motor.
As far as race team tuning they do it in wind tunnels and on the fly remotely while the guy is on the track. I am sure there is different tuning for each corner and straight. It's probably all done from a satellite and they are compensating for Lunar stages. So what? Go to a track day and tell me how many bikes have PowerCommanders on them. They work. Simple and no hassels. In my opinion best thing Optimum has is Scooter. If he weren't there I would have dumped Optimum long ago.
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thedeatons
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
Okay okay, don't yell.... It just seems that not adjusting the timing is weird. There IS more hp to be found in timing, and better starting to be found by adjusting timing also.... Just throwing my thoughts out there. Did you read all of my posts in detail?
I still think the PC is a good idea, but since I can use the D&M I don't plan to spend money on another tuner.
I still think the PC is a good idea, but since I can use the D&M I don't plan to spend money on another tuner.
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cannondale27
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm