Before it begin - The Jesus Tomb March 4th

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Smitty911
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#61 Post by Smitty911 »

QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Mar 7 2007, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How do you or anyone else know that a atom doesn't think right or wrong? Am I right in saying that when you say we know right or wrong it means we have a conscience(sp)? Last I heard it wasn't measurable or identifiable so how can anyone presume even a atom doesn't have one? Brings up another question. Just because YOUR conscience says its right or wrong what if someone else's says opposite?


How do you know atoms exist, ever seen one? How do you know they exist, because you can see the effect they have on the world.

Same with a Conscience, Love, Hope, Hate, etc. all of these cannot be explained or measured by science, but there effects are very real in the world.

What do you think a conscience is? Why would we need one? Why would an atom need one? How would a conscience benefit or be explained in a Darwinian process? Why does a Darwinian thought process go against some conscience acts?

Society GENERALLY agrees with:
Listening to your parents
Murdering people is wrong
Don't cheat on your wife/husband
Theft is wrong
Don't lie

These sound a lot like the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandment is the Standard to which all people will be judged. Without a Standard in which to measure, than you (the imperial you) have allowed for subjective reasoning.

If you subscribe to subjective reasoning than my earlier statement about Hitler and Mother Theresa did what their conscience allowed them to and we should not hold them accountable. Being that I tweaked everyone with that statement - says plainly that there are moral absolutes that effect their conscience. Voila - God has written his words on our hearts. For some I may have just jumped though some pretty big holes and used some loose mental gymnastics. But at the end of the road that's what "I" believe you end up. Other opinions welcomed of course.

Smitty

Smitty911
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#62 Post by Smitty911 »

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 7 2007, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
those words were not added to clarify something. They were added by someone because they thought it should be added. There is a difference. To say that EVERYTHING in the bible is 100% but to say not everything was actually there when it was written doesn't make sense.

As for your last comment...talk about drawing conclusions. You are the one that has said that if anything in the bible were wrong then all of Christianity would crumble, not me. I have no problem understanding that the book was not written by god, but by man. I have no problem in reconciling facts of science with my creation without turning by cheek to either. I have no problem admitting that what we are or where we came from is beyond my understanding whether I have a belief one way or the other.

UPSMAN isn't the only one with an extremist view on here guys. May not be the same extreme view, but its extreme none the less.


Happyboy,

You don't think they were added for clarity, I think they were. Here are some more examples: I have highlighted the additional words for clarity.

Romans16:24[the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.] This was found in some of the copies not all so it was put into brackets.
1 John 5:7-8 [7]For there are three that testify: [8] the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. My translation has omitted the clarify statement explaining who the three are.
Mark 3:16-17 [16] and He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom He gave the name Peter), [17] and James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, "Sons of Thunder");

The statements above do not appear in all transcripts or where added for clarity to others. I don't believe that that makes for an error. An example might be that Judas betrayed Jesus in three of the Gospels but in the fourth that John Betrayed Jesus. That's an error.

You said - "To say that EVERYTHING in the bible is 100% but to say not everything was actually there when it was written doesn't make sense."

Sure it does, How much do you know about translation of ancient text? I myself do not know that much, but what I have read is that as more and more research into the geopolitical, historical events are giving us a clearer picture of what life was like back than. As we increase in this knowledge, we gain understanding, with more understanding we can better translate the ancient words into something we would understand today. In my Bible any added text is [ ] or ( ) or Italicized to show that they are in some manuscripts but not all.

I use a NASB here is what they say:
Alternative Readings: In addition to the more literal renderings, notations have been made to include alternate translations, reading of variant manuscripts and explanatory equivalents of the test. Only such notations have been used as have been felt justified in assisting the reader's comprehension of the terms used by the original author. Emphasis mine.

Italics - Italics are used in the text to indicate words which are not found in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek but implied by it.

They also give you their Principles of Translation.

You last paragraph are you referencing a question that I asked you? Here is what I said
QUOTE
"are you saying that because words where added to clarify a point that the rest of the Bible supports, that the whole book should be thrown out or isn't valid."
Emphasis mine. I have admitted that there are typos and mistranslations. My statement about throwing the whole thing away "IS" in reference to them ever finding a box with JESUS bones in them. The Bible we have today is almost 100% of what they had almost 2,000 years ago.

Please take 5-10 minutes and follow this link to read about the Bible, it speaks more clearly than I do. biggrin.gif

http://www.carm.org/bible/no_originals.htm
http://www.carm.org/questions/rewritten.htm

Please allow me to quote you. "I have no problem understanding that the book was not written by god, but by man." emphasis mine, I'll show my work.

Man wrote the Bible. [inspired or not]
The Bible has Errors. [copyist or other wise]
The Bible is mistranslated [wrong use of words]
The Bible has added words in some translations [added for whatever reason]
Those Errors show that God could not convey his message to man. [by not keeping his word TRUE/PURE]
God allowed his Word to be changed [Implies that God changed]
Therefore God is weak.
Don't believe the Bible

My side:
God put the words in Man head to write down the original. 100% of Gods intended message.
Though time originals were damaged and copies made.
Copies of copies where made and a few typos/copyist errors exist.
With over 5,000 copies of the ancient manuscripts, we can tell where the typos/copyist errors are.
Therefore there is a God, His Word is the Bible, we can believe it.

Hopefully that makes sense. If I misunderstood your position please clarify.

You are implying that an extreme view is the wrong view. You also have stated that Upsman has an extreme view. Studies would indicate that both of our views are currently main stream in America. I guess I shouldn't us the studies that my Pastor quoted and gave reference from as I don't have them at my disposal. Take it on Faith. USA Today did one not long ago where 80% of Americans claim to be Christians. To bad they didn't ask how many believe the Bible is true, that would have been very telling. Don't you agree?

To recap my position:
There is a God
Jesus is God in the Flesh
Jesus died on the cross for our sins
Buried and rose on the third day
The Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

What extreme position have I taken that isn't supported in the Bible. These are not extreme in the Christian community, these are the tenets of Faith by millions of Christians world wide.

I'm not even upset that you think I'm and extremist. cool.gif

The hardest verse in the bible In the Beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.

Smitty

UpsMan
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#63 Post by UpsMan »

Sorry Smitty, I just don't have the time for this crap right now. I have to get to work. Everyone needs their packages you know. By the way, What is the meaning of life? Are we here for a purpose? Or are we just here?

Smitty911
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#64 Post by Smitty911 »

QUOTE (UpsMan @ Mar 7 2007, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry Smitty, I just don't have the time for this crap right now. I have to get to work. Everyone needs their packages you know. By the way, What is the meaning of life? Are we here for a purpose? Or are we just here?


UpsMan,

Yup, Our man in Brown just dropped off a boat load for me to get done. How's the eye?

I'll get to your question later also.

Drive safe.

Smitty

hawksd1
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#65 Post by hawksd1 »

QUOTE (harleypitbull1 @ Mar 5 2007, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with you guys that some things sound like bible bashing. I too felt this way before I was saved. After a person becomes a christian it is supposedly there duty to tell others about Jesus christ being their savior and how that can happen. Sometimes it comes across as bashing because some people just dont want to hear it. But I relate to Smitty, when something like christianity is thousands of years old and you have some reporter decide that he has discovered something that would totally discredit christianity, it bothers me. Smitty ask some questions to UPS man, why not answer those questions to let people know how you feel instead of bashing him. Religion is a hard thing to talk about becuase some people have heard it so much, that it sounds like bible beating anytime they hear something about it. If you really believe in something and think it to be totally true, then you will talk about it no matter who it offends. As far as this show goes, it was very dramatized and used a hypothesis that someone had come up with and put it into pictures that only told thier side of the story. let me ask you all a question. IF ALL THIS ABOUT JESUS WAS MADE UP,,,,,,, MANY OF THE DECIPLES WERE KILLED BECAUSE THEY CONTINUED TO FOLLOW JESUS AFTER HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION. DO YOU TRULY THINK THAT THESE GUYS WOULD HAVE TOOK A LIE TO THIER DEATH JUST TO PROTECT A SECRET? IT TAKES SOMEONE SPECIAL TO SIT THERE AND TAKE A BEATING FOR A REASON THAT IS MADE UP. MAYBE ONE PERSON COULD BUT IF YOU SIT THERE AND WATCH 3 MEN BEAT AND KILLED BEFORE YOU, AND ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TELL THE TRUTH TO BE SET FREE. NOT MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ARE GOING TO BE BEAT AND KILLED TO PROTECT A LIE.

I believe the bible is true from cover to cover. but once again, this is my opinion and I am entitled to it as you are entitled to yours. 1 more question, if you dont believe in God, then how do you suppose we all got here?
choices you have

1. God created the universe
2. Big bang theory
3. evolution

In my opinion only 1 of these is even possible

justa quick lil thought for yah to discuss numbers 1-3 are my beliefs....I feel God created the big bang and nurtured evolution Am I still saved

hawksd1
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#66 Post by hawksd1 »

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 6 2007, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OOhhhhhh,, iiiiii ggoootttaaaaa bite on this one also. LOL One of Tom Clancys Books had a great line in it. "If your gonna pull the tigers tail, you better have a plan to deal with his teeth." Gotta love it. Book wasnt bad either.

If everything needs a creator, then who or what created God?
Below was taken from www.carm.org I don't have that kind of Horsepower upstairs. Sheep don't need brains they are a feeders. LOl

This question is logically problematic. If everything needs a creator, than no matter what exists, it must have been created. Furthermore, to be created means that someone or something had to create it. But then, who created the creator and so on? Logically, this would mean there would be an infinite regression of creators and we would never be able to find the first, uncaused cause since, by definition (the questions says that "everything needs a creator") there wouldn't be any uncaused cause. This would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal. But, if it exists that there is an eternal regression of creators, then who created the infinite regression of creators? Remember, the question presupposes that all things need a creator -- even the eternal sequence of creators -- which becomes logically absurd. Furthermore, if there is an eternal regression of creators that are eternal, then the question is not answered. In fact, it cannot be answered since it weakness is that "all things need a creator." Of course, this only begs the question in that how did the process begin? Therefore, the question only raises the same problem it asks and it is a question that, by its own design, cannot be answered. Therefore, it is invalid.

The question is better phrased as a statement: "Everything that has come into existence, was brought into existence by something else." This is a more logical statement and is not wrought with the difficulties of the initial question. In the revised statement "Everything that has come into existence," implies that the thing that "has come into existence" did not already exist. If it did not already exist but then came into existence, then something had to bring it into existence because something that does not exist cannot bring itself into existence (a logical absolute). This pushes the regression of creators back to what we would call the theoretical "uncaused cause" since there cannot be an infinite regression of creators as discussed above and since in infinite number of creators would mean there was an infinite number of creations and created things including things that cannot be destroyed since they would constitute things that exist. If that is so, then the universe would have had an infinite number of created things in it and it would be full. But it is not full. Therefore, there has not been an infinite regression of creations.

By definition, the Christian God never came into existence; that is, He is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). He was always in existence and He is the one who created space, time, and matter. This means that the Christian God is the uncaused cause and is the ultimate creator. This eliminates the infinite regression problem.

But some may ask, "But who created God?" But the answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.


Of course no one has to accept the above explination, but it is a VALID explination.

There reason we know that God did not start the "Ball Rollling" and Evolution works, is quickly dismissed in the Book of Genisis. GOD walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. Does that sound like he just up and left for a couple of billion years.

Natural Selections is a process that Evolutionist like to use to show how everything just happened by accedent and enviromental pressures. Yet, they have never been able to show a Transitional Fossil. Yes I read Talk Origins.org. All they have ever shown was FULLY FORMED animals. Some parts are relocated and that shows a transition. Yet there are no half formed Birds feathers, half formed gill systems, half formed anything. The Cambrian Explosion show LOTS of Fossils that "JUST APPEARED" fully formed. What happen to Evolution needs lots of time? Punctuated Equilibrium, evolution happens so fast that no fossils where made that caught the Transitional animals at mid point.

So which way is it?
Happyboy,

What is your deep scientific background? Just curious.
General observation below.

FYI - Calling people names neither strengthens your postion or weakens the other person view.

Smitty
Hey Smitty your lost transitions are all around you if you look...ex: when you see or here about a genetic abnormality within a species or deformity I believe its natures way of trying something new to cope with an ever changing environment , ruling out toxic chemicals of course but the reason you never see transitional fossils is think about how frequently you see abnormalities now and how rare just a regular fossil is then think about how much rarer it would be to find that one in a million transitional.

Smitty911
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#67 Post by Smitty911 »

QUOTE (hawksd1 @ Mar 8 2007, 01:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
justa quick lil thought for yah to discuss numbers 1-3 are my beliefs....I feel God created the big bang and nurtured evolution Am I still saved


Hawksd1,

Thanks for joining the conversation, as you can see we are attempting to keep it civil.LOL

As far as you beliefs, what are you actually asking. Some believe in all three, some people believe that they are mutually exclusive. Regardless of which of the above statement you believe. None of them will get you, lead you, or convince you that you are "Saved".

1. God created the universe
2. Big bang theory
3. evolution

Personally, I believe that God created the universe and everything in it. The literal 6 days as recorded in the Book of Genesis.
1. If you believe God exist and he could create everything why would it take him Billions of years.
2. I have seen no compelling evidence for a Billion year old earth. Yes, I read a lot about it.
3. For life to exist on earth, the Earth would have to have been made ready to inhabit.

Big Band Theory - I'm currently reading "A case for Faith" by Lee Strobel Everyone Atheist and Theist should pick it up and read it. Scientist believe in the Big Bang, which kills the notion of endless regresion, they know there was a starting point. That starting point is Supernatural in origin. ie: God.

Evolution - the Goo to You theory -

"Evolutionary theory is still, as it was in Darwin's time, a highly speculative hypothesis entirely without direct factual support and very far from that self-evident axiom some of its more aggressive advocates would have us believe." [Michael Denton, Molecular Biologist]

"We are now about one hundred and twenty years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species, but the situation hasn't changed much.... We have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time." [David M. Raup Curator of the Field Museum of Natural History]

"I stand in awe of God because of what he has done thought his creation. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God" James Tour [ He builds Molecules for a living. PhD Organic Chemistry, Stanford Over 140 technical research articles and hold 17 US Patents.]

The more we find out the more information that we collect, the more it should lead to belief in God. Biblically speaking there is no evidence in the Bible to support that God took Billion of years to do anything. Each animal was created and bred with its own kind. Natural Selection is observable, we have hundreds of different Canine, but they are still Canine. Same with Feline but they are still Feline, avian, reptilian, etc. No evidence to support a change of one species to another.

Now back to being "Saved". Being Saved can only come from ONE thing, that is the believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for your sins. That he rose from the grave three days later. Believe that and be "Saved". Of course I could elaborate, if asked.

Smitty

Smitty911
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#68 Post by Smitty911 »

QUOTE (hawksd1 @ Mar 8 2007, 01:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Smitty your lost transitions are all around you if you look...ex: when you see or here about a genetic abnormality within a species or deformity I believe its natures way of trying something new to cope with an ever changing environment , ruling out toxic chemicals of course but the reason you never see transitional fossils is think about how frequently you see abnormalities now and how rare just a regular fossil is then think about how much rarer it would be to find that one in a million transitional.


That is one thought, and I agree with you that if you look around you will see products of recessive genes.

According to Darwinian Processes,
First have to have a "Beneficial Mutation" something that would give the animal it was in a better chance of survival.

Scientist have said that roughly 20% of mutations are Beneficial, 30% harmful and 50% benign, so if 80% are bad to benign what would keep them from over taking the 20%. Statistically problematic. You would also have to have that "Mutation" in an area of the gene sequence that would actually be good. Statistically more problematic.

Second you have to have a breeding population in which this "Beneficial Mutation" could take hold.

We know in the Human body that every 2 - 2 1/2 years all the cells in our bodies have been rebuilt. So how would that Mutation continue to not get fixed? How many times would you have a chance to breed and pass along that Mutation? How many surviving young would it take to have enough population to continue the mutation?


Three enough offspring

Once you have enough offspring to support the Mutations continuation, what keeps it from Mutating back?

Your right Transitional Fossils are extremely rare, as a matter of fact they don't exist. Yes, some new fossils from China have shown some dino's with rotated hips and feathers. Heres the problem - The feather are fully formed, opps. No transition, Feathers are extremely complex little gems. How would a partially formed feather benefit a animal? They don't so they couldn't. Rotated hip, where are all of the half rotated hips? They don't exist. Cambrian Explosions show hundreds of animals appear in the fossil record fully formed. No transitional species, no transitional fossils.

Now lets talk about Creation as opposed to Evolution:
God created every animal. Why throughout the fossil record and up to today, most animals (mammals and fish) have two eyes? Two ears? Two legs, One mouth, etc. Wouldn't a deer with an extra set of eyes on his/her rump have a better chance of survival?

Evolution is a myth to take God out of play. It allows for the chance of this being an accident. If we are here as an accident than we are open to "Subjective thinking" with No Moral Absolutes, and everyone can do what they want without accountability.

At some point you have to appeal to authority, because you can't know everything about everything. My appeal is to God.

Hope that helps

Smitty

UpsMan
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#69 Post by UpsMan »

Well dog gone it, I'm convinced!

Smitty911
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#70 Post by Smitty911 »

QUOTE (UpsMan @ Mar 8 2007, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well dog gone it, I'm convinced!


That's it!!!!!! I could have save a lot of hours typing and looking stuff up. Time well spent I guess. LOL

Which part was extremely convincing so I can just cut and paste it for the next time. LOL

Glad you joined us.

Smitty

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