Take the Falicon chalange.
QUOTE (timbomoose @ Mar 5 2007, 11:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Absolutely no one is perfect,but if a company doesn't care and does't fix there problems or even acknowledge there's an issue after contacted people do have the right to know.
Right on right on. By no means were any of my comments meant negatively...i am sure you (Tim) realize that even if some others might not. So in the open, I have 0 quams with any of Tim's work. He is the most honest builder i have known and bends over backwards to make things right.
And dang thats a rough list on the Falicons. I wouldn't try and rebuild one either...its just not worth the money you make on the rebuild risking breaking a $1000 crank.
[quote name='timbomoose' date='Mar 5 2007, 11:33 AM' poAlot of times problems aren't know unless heard abut. Absolutely no one is perfect,but if a company doesn't care and does't fix there problems or even acknowledge there's an issue after contacted people do have the right to know.
[/quote]
Who are you talking about here?LOL
So Has anybody had any good results with a falicon besides Brady? Any super strokers out there yet? Anybody ever seen one in person? Do they even exist?
[/quote]
Who are you talking about here?LOL
So Has anybody had any good results with a falicon besides Brady? Any super strokers out there yet? Anybody ever seen one in person? Do they even exist?
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wayneschofield
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
Has anyone actually checked the position of the keyway for the flywheel?
If that's out a couple of degrees the ignition timing will also be out by the same amount, since the crank sensor is on the flywheel, not the crank itself.
The lower rod/stroke ratio will cause the acceleration to be greater about the upper stroke half and that will affect the breathing SLIGHTLY, but very little given the difference in the relative timings.
Also, since the piston accelerates down the bore a little faster there will be less pressure exerted on the piston by the expanding gas, as the gas expands at a finite rate. If the piston moves faster the mean EFFECTIVE pressure will be less, which equates directly with torque of course.
What we generally look for, when looking for best ouput in any engine (four stroke), is to have peak cylinder pressure occurring 12 degrees after TDC. If the piston moves away from TDC faster for a given angular change then peak pressure will happen later in the stroke. More advance is usually required thus with a shorter rod ratio....
SO, with a shorter rod and longer stroke you WILL see some reduction in power and torque for a given bore/stroke but some of this would be redressed by more advance, since the combustion is effectively slower vs crank angle. A little is lost to side-thrust too, given the steeper rod-angle, already mentioned by Timbo in an earlier post I think....
Whether the above would cause a shortage of 3-4lbs I find very doubtfull, given the actual difference in the lengths we have. However, if the keyway is slightly out too, this will very much exacerbate the problem.....
There is a little potential for more drag on the rod sides, but I doubt it would amount to much.
Falicon don't sell pistons with their cranks, and different people often want different piston specs to suit their particular needs anyway, so all Falicon can be expected to do with their stroker cranks is install a shorter rod, which is exactly what they do. They have to sell the crank assembly to fit stock piston hight, not custom ones, so that they can be installed without the fuss associated with custom made parts.
If it was suggested to them to offer a longer rod option so that the customer had the opportunity to choose if he wanted to use a shorter piston they might oblige, who knows?
If they have the crankpin issue raised too, they might fix that as well.
Timbo has already said he 'can only do so much' and there are stock cranks he won't fix if they are too far gone, so do we really want to hassle a company still prepared to make brand-new parts for us into stopping production? I don't think so....
Give them feedback rather than public criticism is what I say, and perhaps in time, if we iron out all the inherant bugs from our toys with the help of various companies, we can enjoy our pastime with the minimum of trouble.
Falicon, ATK, Black-Widow, Timbo etc are all BUSINESSES, they have to make some $ in order to survive. If they did not they would cease to be and WE would lose out for darn certain....
I am fortunate to have an income from other means, so anything I do for the quads is completely free of profit. I enjoy developing things, making improvements as I can here and there. I do understand though that those companies making things have to charge accordingly, and the more successful they are the better, as they are more likely to carry on doing it and keep us going in the process......
Toys cost money.
If that's out a couple of degrees the ignition timing will also be out by the same amount, since the crank sensor is on the flywheel, not the crank itself.
The lower rod/stroke ratio will cause the acceleration to be greater about the upper stroke half and that will affect the breathing SLIGHTLY, but very little given the difference in the relative timings.
Also, since the piston accelerates down the bore a little faster there will be less pressure exerted on the piston by the expanding gas, as the gas expands at a finite rate. If the piston moves faster the mean EFFECTIVE pressure will be less, which equates directly with torque of course.
What we generally look for, when looking for best ouput in any engine (four stroke), is to have peak cylinder pressure occurring 12 degrees after TDC. If the piston moves away from TDC faster for a given angular change then peak pressure will happen later in the stroke. More advance is usually required thus with a shorter rod ratio....
SO, with a shorter rod and longer stroke you WILL see some reduction in power and torque for a given bore/stroke but some of this would be redressed by more advance, since the combustion is effectively slower vs crank angle. A little is lost to side-thrust too, given the steeper rod-angle, already mentioned by Timbo in an earlier post I think....
Whether the above would cause a shortage of 3-4lbs I find very doubtfull, given the actual difference in the lengths we have. However, if the keyway is slightly out too, this will very much exacerbate the problem.....
There is a little potential for more drag on the rod sides, but I doubt it would amount to much.
Falicon don't sell pistons with their cranks, and different people often want different piston specs to suit their particular needs anyway, so all Falicon can be expected to do with their stroker cranks is install a shorter rod, which is exactly what they do. They have to sell the crank assembly to fit stock piston hight, not custom ones, so that they can be installed without the fuss associated with custom made parts.
If it was suggested to them to offer a longer rod option so that the customer had the opportunity to choose if he wanted to use a shorter piston they might oblige, who knows?
If they have the crankpin issue raised too, they might fix that as well.
Timbo has already said he 'can only do so much' and there are stock cranks he won't fix if they are too far gone, so do we really want to hassle a company still prepared to make brand-new parts for us into stopping production? I don't think so....
Give them feedback rather than public criticism is what I say, and perhaps in time, if we iron out all the inherant bugs from our toys with the help of various companies, we can enjoy our pastime with the minimum of trouble.
Falicon, ATK, Black-Widow, Timbo etc are all BUSINESSES, they have to make some $ in order to survive. If they did not they would cease to be and WE would lose out for darn certain....
I am fortunate to have an income from other means, so anything I do for the quads is completely free of profit. I enjoy developing things, making improvements as I can here and there. I do understand though that those companies making things have to charge accordingly, and the more successful they are the better, as they are more likely to carry on doing it and keep us going in the process......
Toys cost money.
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cannondale27
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
Wayne that would be very interesting to find out.Is the keyway off?Could be since I believe on Bradys quad which is only Falicon to pull HP like that alot of time was spent on ignition mapping.Maybe that corrected any variation.
Now as for them as a company.Yes they are the only company making an entirely new crank for us but if keyway is off its just another thing to add to the list of defects that Falicon should have caught before the cranks were delivered to money paying customers.Those cranks arent cheap and you have to admit that most of the defects these Falicons have are real no brainers for anyone with even some degree of mechanical aptitude.Do you know there are some cranks that were delivered with a short short rod?So these people had extremely low compression.How can that happen?I just hope they make em right.If ATK can get them for $500 like said and they are made right it would be a really nice option.
Now as for them as a company.Yes they are the only company making an entirely new crank for us but if keyway is off its just another thing to add to the list of defects that Falicon should have caught before the cranks were delivered to money paying customers.Those cranks arent cheap and you have to admit that most of the defects these Falicons have are real no brainers for anyone with even some degree of mechanical aptitude.Do you know there are some cranks that were delivered with a short short rod?So these people had extremely low compression.How can that happen?I just hope they make em right.If ATK can get them for $500 like said and they are made right it would be a really nice option.
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wayneschofield
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
I don't know the full history of every problem ever to come out of Falicon but, suffice to say, anyone can make a mistake. I do myself, usually when I'm tired trying to get the job done as soon as I can.
Because I work on my own though, I can usually rectify the problem before the job goes out. I suspect Timbo is similar to myself; proud to do what he does, enjoys what he does (and does it for too cheap), is happy to help folk out and does all the work himself so as to avoid damage to his reputation should an employee make a ****-up..... I am only guessing there but that is the 'vibe' I get.....
Falicon may have only been sent a crank as a sample to make a replacement, rather than a full engine, so they may not be aware of the nuances of the rest of the engine design. They may not be aware of the importance of the exact keyway position. It may be in the right place anyway, we're only suspecting it at the moment remember....
It is getting hard to find good staff, it is in the UK at least, and I can only assume that it's the same over there. Schools seem to direct the 'school dummies' into engineering or the motor trade without realising a motor car is the most complex thing we own these days. Engineering likely suffers in the same way I expect.
No doubt Falicon, just like any other company, has it's share of dope-smoking, bone-idle no-brainers in it's employ. They might be happy to send stuff out without realising how much work is involved in finding and putting right whatever is wrong, but if we don't tell them every time we have a problem we will suffer again later. Let's face it, how many motors came out of Cannondale with bad cranks and variable quality on other parts.....? All of them....? And we all still love the 'Dales don't we?
I just wanted to post my understanding of what might be the problem with regards to the power output from the Falicon-equipped motors. My job involves setting up engines on the dyno every day. I find that every engine is a little different in one way or another, and to get the best from them they individually need to be set up right. If we did this with every motor we build we perhaps would have more logical and consistent results from them, and it would make finding other 'issues' easier.
Because I work on my own though, I can usually rectify the problem before the job goes out. I suspect Timbo is similar to myself; proud to do what he does, enjoys what he does (and does it for too cheap), is happy to help folk out and does all the work himself so as to avoid damage to his reputation should an employee make a ****-up..... I am only guessing there but that is the 'vibe' I get.....
Falicon may have only been sent a crank as a sample to make a replacement, rather than a full engine, so they may not be aware of the nuances of the rest of the engine design. They may not be aware of the importance of the exact keyway position. It may be in the right place anyway, we're only suspecting it at the moment remember....
It is getting hard to find good staff, it is in the UK at least, and I can only assume that it's the same over there. Schools seem to direct the 'school dummies' into engineering or the motor trade without realising a motor car is the most complex thing we own these days. Engineering likely suffers in the same way I expect.
No doubt Falicon, just like any other company, has it's share of dope-smoking, bone-idle no-brainers in it's employ. They might be happy to send stuff out without realising how much work is involved in finding and putting right whatever is wrong, but if we don't tell them every time we have a problem we will suffer again later. Let's face it, how many motors came out of Cannondale with bad cranks and variable quality on other parts.....? All of them....? And we all still love the 'Dales don't we?
I just wanted to post my understanding of what might be the problem with regards to the power output from the Falicon-equipped motors. My job involves setting up engines on the dyno every day. I find that every engine is a little different in one way or another, and to get the best from them they individually need to be set up right. If we did this with every motor we build we perhaps would have more logical and consistent results from them, and it would make finding other 'issues' easier.
I know this is an old post but this info might help you with the rod length question. I have built a few Banshees and a lot of muscle cars for drag racing. The longer rod helps the piston dwell at top and bottom dead center longer. Meaning it takes the crank longer degrees to get the piston to move from top to bottom and vise versa. This allows for the cylinder to fill better with air and fuel and when at top allows for a more complete burn on the compression stroke and helps to exit the exhaust on the exhaust stroke. The best rod to stroke ratio is 2:1 it makes the best powerand is easier on the thrust sides of a motor. A short rod is good when you need to rev up fast like tight turns and very short straights. Not the best for power but if its corner to corner and s curves all day it's better. So thats the short of it the way I understand it. Long rod better power, short rod faster rev. I hope this helps and since i'm new to Cannondales its all have to offer for now.