Before it begin - The Jesus Tomb March 4th

[Happyboy]

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 8 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Next time a car bomb goes off could you show me an example of the small indivual thing that has order. What you saee is the results the outcome of the laws of natures effect on them. That's it. Entropy also would come into play. Things naturally decay the don't naturally get more orderly. Because of Entropy we ask our Kids to clean their rooms, they don't just happen. (it would be nice though)

Car bomb? tsk tsk
But, you are looking at the big picture again, not a very small part of it. And you look at it right after it happens, rather than what? billions of years later? lol

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 8 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once God started creation the Pysical laws began to exist, this "Could" account for the six days. That alot of work to get done in a small time. Maybe he didn't get overtime and it was a straight eight.

could? time means nothing.

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 8 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far as the Bible, I don't make the claim that it was. You do. Your claim is that God did not write it, Man did and therefore it is tainted and unreliable.

Don't go putting words in my mouth. unreliable? I think most (i don't say all as i haven't read the bible in decades) is right in line with the point of christianity. heck, it was put together to do just that. Is the message correct? yup

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 8 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry you don't have faith it the Bible, but without it what do you really have?

again, don't go putting words in my mouth. i have faith in the lord's message, not a book.

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 8 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about you show me why I shouldn't believe everything in the Bible as it is written. Show me were it is wrong. FYI you will need to bring something more than added words for clarity sake. (ex. comma of John, which as you know, I feel that those words where added in that translation to clarify who the "Three that bear record." are)

If the bible is supposed to be 100% accurate and authentic then how can we have added passages to books hundred+ years after it was written? But, just like the rest of the bible thumpers, you had a way of reconciling the wrong to make it right. All of these pages of writing does nothing but give you a pedestal to stand on. While I don't think discussion of this type is bad, it does have its place. How would you like it if a Muslim got on here and started preaching his religion?

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 8 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just curious what church/denomination do you attend?

While I haven't been active in a while I still consider myself Catholic. Reason? I find myself aligning with the Catholic beliefs more than other denominations. One biggee.....It is not our place to judge and say who will or won't go to heaven.

[cannondale27]

You go Happyboy right on!I gave up trying to talk common sense in regards to Bible though.I wonder if its a sin to not listen with a open mind?Now evolution of any kind is being denied?Smitty are you going so far as to even deny it on the smallest level?Why?How do you know God didnt design his creations with adaptation and evolution built in?If I designed that would definitly be part of design.I am sure God would think of it since we are designed to be the rulers of the world and everything in it.

Hey in regards to explosions.At Nuclear plant they had a Hydrogen burn in a storage facility.It move the concrete lid which is 3ft thick and 12"x12"or so over a few inches even.All explosions are actually burns.

[Smitty911]

QUOTE (jwheat @ Mar 9 2007, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't not believe in God and believe in the resurrection. One couldn't happen without the other.

The only evidence that I see is Jesus' remains were gone from the tomb. What better way to further your cause than to remove the body and shout "resurrection." Too many zealots and fanatics associated with religion to discount that possibility.

I've been here all along..... just quietly watching from the shadows!

Lets look at the recorded events from a detective point of view. These four facts about the fate of Jesus are widely accepted.

1. Jesus was crucified, he was buried in Joseph of Arimathea in a tomb. This is important because it means the location was known to Jews, Christians and Romans. This is recorded in Pauls first letter to the church in Corinth. The date of the letter is 5 years after the death of Jesus so it wasn't legendary. It would also be inexplicable for anyone to make up Joseph's involvement, since he was a member of the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus.

2. Women found the tomb empty on that Sunday morning. This is substantiated by Paul's early report to the Corinthians, which implies the empty tomb, and by Mark's very old source material. So again we have early, independent attestation. The testimony of women was considered so unreliable that they couldn't testify in Jewish courts. The only reason to include the highly embarrassing detail that women discovered the empty tomb is that the gospel writers faithfully recording what really happened.

3. Multiple occasions and various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. To early after the event to be made up. There were a lot of people around that would have said other wise, but there is no counter stories.

4. The original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their predisposition to the contrary. Jewish beliefs precluded anyone's rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world. They all were willing to die for that belief.

SO, there is absolutely no naturalistic explanation that fits. The old stories of "the disciples stole the body" or "Jesus wasn't really dead" have been universally rejected by modern scholarship.

Best fit explanation - it happened just as recorded.

Gerd Ludemann: New Testament skeptic: "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ."

Although Atheist may claim otherwise they have no proof the events did not happen as recorded.

Glad your around, even if in the shadows.

Smitty

[jwheat]

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 8 2007, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lets look at the recorded events from a detective point of view. These four facts about the fate of Jesus are widely accepted.

1. Jesus was crucified, he was buried in Joseph of Arimathea in a tomb. This is important because it means the location was known to Jews, Christians and Romans. This is recorded in Pauls first letter to the church in Corinth. The date of the letter is 5 years after the death of Jesus so it wasn't legendary. It would also be inexplicable for anyone to make up Joseph's involvement, since he was a member of the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus.

2. Women found the tomb empty on that Sunday morning. This is substantiated by Paul's early report to the Corinthians, which implies the empty tomb, and by Mark's very old source material. So again we have early, independent attestation. The testimony of women was considered so unreliable that they couldn't testify in Jewish courts. The only reason to include the highly embarrassing detail that women discovered the empty tomb is that the gospel writers faithfully recording what really happened.

3. Multiple occasions and various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. To early after the event to be made up. There were a lot of people around that would have said other wise, but there is no counter stories.

4. The original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their predisposition to the contrary. Jewish beliefs precluded anyone's rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world. They all were willing to die for that belief.

SO, there is absolutely no naturalistic explanation that fits. The old stories of "the disciples stole the body" or "Jesus wasn't really dead" have been universally rejected by modern scholarship.

Best fit explanation - it happened just as recorded.

Gerd Ludemann: New Testament skeptic: "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ."

Although Atheist may claim otherwise they have no proof the events did not happen as recorded.

Glad your around, even if in the shadows.

Smitty

Smitty... all of your explanations take huge leaps of FAITH. Just because women were considered unreliable and that their testimony was stilled recorded..... that would be a stretch. None of what you offered above is anything more than blind faith and opinions. It is still very plausible that fanaticism played a huge role in most of the supernatural events in the Bible.

The Bible may be a record of history, but it is still a record that has been recorded by very biased individuals. All of these individuals that gave testimony wanted their beliefs to be the FACTUAL beliefs and details. Everybody wants to be right.

The problem with information such as this that relies on eyewitness testimony is that each witness sees it slightly different. Put ten people in a circle and tell a secret the person to your right, and he passes it on to the person to his right, and so on until it comes full circle...... the original secret will have changed by the time you here it again.

Remember the old addage... there are three sides to every arguement..... yours, mine, and the truth.

Jimbo

[UpsMan]

On the way to work today I was listening to a religious program on the radio. An AM station of course. The guy was talking about the differences between catholics and protestants and lutherans and baptists, etc. He said " there are two kinds of religion. those that are true, and those that are false." He then went on to say that his beliefs were right, and everyone else was going to suffer eternal damnation. Soooo, to this guy, the baptists down the road are going to ****, the catholics are going to ****, everyone but his congregation apparently are going to ****. Smitty, were you on the radio this morning? To this guy, you don't just have to believe in god and live a good, clean life, You also have to confess your sins in just the right way, get on your knees in just the right way, and of course give the correct percentage of your income. Then you can get into the kingdom of heaven. And if you don't, well, **** awaits you.

[Smitty911]

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 9 2007, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Car bomb? tsk tsk I used this because they happen almost daily and you have a lot to choose from.
But, you are looking at the big picture again, not a very small part of it. Show me a small part from an explosion that looks orderly. I'm game if you can find one. The big picture is a hole in the ground, with lots of stuff thrown outwards. And you look at it right after it happens, rather than what? billions of years later? lol Show me something current. Take a times lapsed film of a detonation and show me some order to it. Of course the only order will be What goes up, must come down. Law of Gravity. Show me something made in an explosion, say something small like, piston wrist pin clip.LOL
could? That is my thinking, do you have a better explanation? time means nothing. Time means nothing to whom? It only seems to have meaning when you don't have any left.

Don't go putting words in my mouth. unreliable? I think most (i don't say all as i haven't read the bible in decades) You said it again, "I think most" how much than 50%, 60%, 90% what is the cutoff, where do we cut it off? We have a better understanding today than when you quit reading the Bible decades ago, a more accurate picture based on Science, History, Languages, etc.is right in line with the point of Christianity. Which is what to you? heck, it was put together to do just that. So now the Bible is "put together" to keep a coherent message? Is the message correct? yup

I haven't put words in your mouth you said "God did not write the Bible, Man did." You also said you don't believe some of it. OK what parts don't you agree with. What is the message you are getting from the Bible and is it correct? How would you know if the book has errors? I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth again.

again, don't go putting words in my mouth. i have faith in the lord's message, not a book. What is the message? Where do you get it if not from the Book? If the book isn't correct how can the message be?
If the bible is supposed to be 100% accurate and authentic then how can we have added passages to books hundred+ years after it was written?

Here are all the major translations that I'm aware about the verse in Question. If you have other passages that I should be looking at could you also provide them. Thanks

KJV - 1Jo 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost Defines the three: and these three are one.

King James Version 1611, 1769
NKJV - 1Jo 5:7 -For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; Defines the threeand these three are one.

New King James Version ???? 1982 Thomas Nelson
NLT - 1Jo 5:7 - So we have these three witnesses- No added text
Footnote: Some very late manuscripts add in heaven????????the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And we have three witnesses on earth.

New Living Translation ???? 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NIV - 1Jo 5:7 - For there are three that testify: No added text

Footnote:
Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)

New International Version ???? 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society
ESV - 1Jo 5:7 - For there are three that testify: No added text

The Holy Bible, English Standard Version ???? 2001 Crossway Bibles
NASB - 1Jo 5:7 - For there are three that testify: No added text

New American Standard Bible ???? 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV - 1Jo 5:7 - And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. Different wording

Revised Standard Version ???? 1947, 1952.
ASV - 1Jo 5:7 - And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. Same version as above earlier translation different wording

American Standard Version 1901 Info
Young - 1Jo 5:7 - because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit,] and these -- the three -- are one; Bracketed for variant reading

Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
Darby - 1Jo 5:7 - For they that bear witness are three: No added text

J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info
Webster - 1Jo 5:7 - For there are three that bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. Defines the three

Noah Webster Version 1833 Info
HNV - 1Jo 5:7 - For there are three who testify: No added text

Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info
Vulgate - 1Jo 5:7 -quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant some original text

Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

But, just like the rest of the bible thumper, [ad hom noted ]you had a way of reconciling the wrong to make it right. Please show me how that addition of the words "Change" the message, or even make it wrong. If the actual words are that important can you read Hebrew, Greek and Arabic to make sure you are getting the right words? If not and the message is important are you planning to learn them?

All of these pages of writing does nothing but give you a pedestal to stand on. ad hom noted If a tree falls in the woods. LOL I'm sure you are aware that there are bigger pedestals on which to stand. I've been reading this board for along time (Oct 2002), and maybe just maybe I care enough to devote some time to you and the rest of the readers. To clear up some misconceptions and bad information about the Bible and Jesus. Information like "Man wrote the Bible" and "all you have to do is live a good life". Both of which are refuted in the BIBLE.

While I don't think discussion of this type is bad, it does have its place. Would you prefer e-mail? How would you like it if a Muslim got on here and started preaching his religion? Wouldn't bother me in the least, I would still ask him the same questions and show him Biblical answers. Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, whatever, the same questions apply.

While I haven't been active in a while I still consider myself Catholic. Reason? I find myself aligning with the Catholic beliefs more than other denominations. One biggee.....It is not our place to judge and say who will or won't go to heaven. Is that what you think I've been doing? I agree with you about we don't get to pick and choose who makes it the heaven. It's not up to me. You have said several times that it's not about the book it about the message. So what message does the book convey? Is it the same message that the current Catholic religion teaches?

I have replied in Blue.

Thanks for your time.

Smitty

[Smitty911]

QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Mar 9 2007, 01:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You go Happyboy right on!I gave up trying to talk common sense in regards to Bible though. See below, you guys don't even have me on the ropes. LOL I wonder if its a sin to not listen with a open mind? You haven't shown anything all you have said is I was wrong, show me something, anything, that hasn't been proven wrong already by most scientist. Now evolution of any kind is being denied? See Below, you need to start reading up if you plan on Keeping up.LOL Smitty are you going so far as to even deny it on the smallest level?Why? See below How do you know God didn't design his creations with adaptation and evolution built in?He built in adaptation it's called Natural Selection, he did not build Evolution, someone else did, care to guess who? If I designed that would definitely be part of design. So why make them in your image if you are going to let it get better than you? I am sure God would think of it since we are designed to be the rulers of the world and everything in it. Which part the adaptation or the evolution?

Hey in regards to explosions.At Nuclear plant they had a Hydrogen burn in a storage facility.It move the concrete lid which is 3ft thick and 12"x12"or so over a few inches even.All explosions are actually burns. Are you with Happyboy than that order comes from an explosion(Rapid Burn)?

'27,

Your killing me. You haven't shown me yet, what parts of the Bible I'm not to take literally. Are you going to do it or just keep repeating that I'm closed minded, show me something. Show me some common sense that you have and correct me.

I'll ask you the same questions that Happyboy did not answer:

Did you spend any time reading the links I posted for you and others?
How much of the Bible have you actually read?
How many Bible studies have you been part of?
What other sources have you read that discusses the Bible?
How much Bible History do you know?
How much of the Jewish belief do you posses?
Do you have a concordance?

Unless you can answer a couple of the above, it would be like me telling Timbo how to build a motor, and I've only heard that they exist. LOL

Let's define common Evolutionary term.

MACRO-Evolution - the changing of one species into another. Example - Common ancestor - one became Ape Branch, one became Man Branch.

MICRO-Evolution - The changes within a animal. Long verse short hair dogs.

MICRO is proven though Natural Selection.

MACRO is unproven in the Fossil Record, DNA, etc.

I don't deny MICRO evolution I have two different types of Dogs, but they are both DOGS. I don't believe MACRO evolution because of no proof of changes from one species into another. Reptile to Avian. Get it. Man you need to get out more and see what is going on. Times have changed gentlemen.

Thanks for keeping typing.

Smitty

[Smitty911]

QUOTE (jwheat @ Mar 9 2007, 03:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Smitty... all of your explanations take huge leaps of FAITH. Just because women were considered unreliable and that their testimony was stilled recorded..... that would be a stretch. None of what you offered above is anything more than blind faith and opinions. It is still very plausible that fanaticism played a huge role in most of the supernatural events in the Bible.

The Bible may be a record of history, but it is still a record that has been recorded by very biased individuals. All of these individuals that gave testimony wanted their beliefs to be the FACTUAL beliefs and details. Everybody wants to be right.

The problem with information such as this that relies on eyewitness testimony is that each witness sees it slightly different. Put ten people in a circle and tell a secret the person to your right, and he passes it on to the person to his right, and so on until it comes full circle...... the original secret will have changed by the time you here it again.

Remember the old adage... there are three sides to every argument..... yours, mine, and the truth.

Jimbo

Not so fast Jimbo. When you read a newspaper, do you assume that the information you are getting from the reporter on site is incorrect? I don't. Do you assume he has a vested interest in which he would be willing to die for? I don't, I think they are reporting what they see and are told. The women thing is Historically factual, why include it unless it happened? Your Biased toward Cannondales should I not believe anything you say about them based on you bias?

Lets look at the Stolen Body that you previously mentioned.
1. 4 Roman Guards where at the tomb, to ensure that no one came and stole the body.
2. If a Roman Guard was found asleep on duty they were killed. If a prisoner escaped , they were killed.
3. Everyone know where this tomb was, it wasn't a secrete place.
4. A large rock Est. 2 tons was put in place over the opening.
5. Said rock would make some noise going over the Hump used to keep them in place.
6. The Disciples had left Christ before the trial after the Garden
7. They saw and heard about his death. John was there.
8. They believed that he was dead.
9. A Spear was shoved into Christ body to ensure that he was Dead.

A. The Jews wouldn't have stolen the body. It would have caused more problems for them if they proved Jesus claims
B. Romans would have made sure that a. he was dead before taking him off the cross ie. Spear water and blood came out due to puncturing of the abdomen. b. Before they released the body to Joseph. c. Didn't care, it didn't effect them, they thought.
C. Why would the disciples go to their deaths believing in a Resurrected Christ if it was a Lie.
D. After the women came and told them the tomb was empty, why would they go check if the took the body.
E. How would they have moved the stone without waking the guards that would have been killed for sleeping.
F. How would he have survived after that beating and lasted three days without food, water, and MODERN MEDICAL care.
G. There is so much more but if you can explain away these the rest won't matter.

Nope, my friend it takes more faith to believe that it didn't happen just the way it was recorded.

The fact that different people saw it and recorded it slightly differently adds to the credibility. Say there was a robbery, with three witness, If they all told the same exact story what do you think. COLLUSION. That is why Police separate witnesses because you can piece the truth together from the whole.

Being Biased doesn't make things wrong. I'm biased, your biased, does that mean anything we say cannot be credible? Of course not. They had also spent the last three years with Jesus, He was all about the truth, so why would his followers make up a lie in direct opposition to what Jesus had been teaching them? And than die for believing it?

I agree with your last statement, In this area the Truth is recorded in the Bible just the way it happened.

Talk to you later.

Smitty

[Smitty911]

QUOTE (UpsMan @ Mar 9 2007, 04:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On the way to work today I was listening to a religious program on the radio. An AM station of course. The guy was talking about the differences between catholics and protestants and lutherans and baptists, etc. He said " there are two kinds of religion. those that are true, and those that are false." He then went on to say that his beliefs were right, and everyone else was going to suffer eternal damnation. Soooo, to this guy, the baptists down the road are going to ****, the catholics are going to ****, everyone but his congregation apparently are going to ****. Smitty, were you on the radio this morning? To this guy, you don't just have to believe in god and live a good, clean life, You also have to confess your sins in just the right way, get on your knees in just the right way, and of course give the correct percentage of your income. Then you can get into the kingdom of heaven. And if you don't, well, **** awaits you.

Upsman,

No, I wasn't on the radio, they don't give me a microphone, it would appear that I shouldn't even be here. LOL Hopefully you don't believe that I think it's my way or the highway, for clarity, I Don't, It's Jesus way or alternative negative result of Free will. I have tried to answer with Biblical responses and shown evidence to support it.

I have been told that I was an "Extremist", No common sense, arrogant, closed minded, to literal, I may be missing some but you get the point. I have answered to the best of my ability with honesty to correct some misconceptions. Those answers have been rejected. Oh well. I've done what I can and will continue.

I don't watch TBN either cause they get into some of that. In the end the only people who will be in Heaven are those that have Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. It's not about the Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Baptist, etc. It's about Jesus paying for our sins and accepting that. It is free to choose or free to leave, those are the only two options.

Anyone who says that it's my way or the Highway is wrong. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). So if they say anything other than that they are suspect.

Are there bad churches that say the above and want your money? sure there are. How do we know them, cause they don't teach the Bible and they want your money. The Bible tells us to check all things.

Don't go to Church, Don't give them any money. Pick up a Study Bible and start reading it ( I use a NASB it has more detail about the history and customs below the versus.). Ask God to show you his message. God knows what is on your mind. Talk to him (Pray) do it while your driving to work or just be alone without distractions and ask him to show you. Start with the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) the first four books of the New Testament. The Bible say those who seek him with an Honest Heart will find him.

Do I understand everything in the Bible, no way! Will I get all of my questions answered, maybe maybe not.
Do I understand why some people die young, nope. Can I live without those answers, I have to. What other choice is there? I looked at most major religions and found them lacking any real answers to why we are here. What is our purpose? So far only Christianity has those answers. Only Christianity has a way to get right with God. Only Christianity has God come down to earth to pay for our sins, because he was the only one that could. Only Christianity is historically verified. There is so much more and the depth of the Bible is beyond me.

When you ask God into your life you will be changed, that much I can promise you. What I don't understand, I take on faith. Some people don't accept Jesus because they are afraid, afraid that they have to give something up. Smoking, Drugs, Sex, etc. The Bible says in Jer 29:11 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." and Psa 84:11 "For the LORD God [is] a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good [thing] will he withhold from them that walk uprightly." There are so many more. His promises to us, to provide, protect, and comfort. When we seek him.

Have a good evening and change radio stations. LOL

Smitty

[cannondale27]

QUOTE

27,

Your killing me. You haven't shown me yet, what parts of the Bible I'm not to take literally. Are you going to do it or just keep repeating that I'm closed minded, show me something. Show me some common sense that you have and correct me.

I'll ask you the same questions that Happyboy did not answer:

Did you spend any time reading the links I posted for you and others?You know I did from other thread
How much of the Bible have you actually read?Over my life most.Not to point of claiming fluency though
How many Bible studies have you been part of?Im Catholic
What other sources have you read that discusses the Bible?Recently just here.
How much Bible History do you know?Enough to know it is a GUIDE
How much of the Jewish belief do you posses?Whatever is in old testament rest is thier business
Do you have a concordance?Clueless

Unless you can answer a couple of the above, it would be like me telling Timbo how to build a motor, and I've only heard that they exist. LOL There you go thinking that written words and knowing them make you smarter than me.Read all the passages to a child and see what questions come out.I bet they will be very confused.

Let's define common Evolutionary term.

MACRO-Evolution - the changing of one species into another. Example - Common ancestor - one became Ape Branch, one became Man Branch.

MICRO-Evolution - The changes within a animal. Long verse short hair dogs.

MICRO is proven though Natural Selection.

MACRO is unproven in the Fossil Record, DNA, etc.

I don't deny MICRO evolution I have two different types of Dogs, but they are both DOGS. I don't believe MACRO evolution because of no proof of changes from one species into another. Reptile to Avian. Get it. Man you need to get out more and see what is going on. Times have changed gentlemen.

Last I heard you cant get DNA from a rock.But I am glad you do believe in some evolution.You had me scared there

Thanks for keeping typing.This comment sounds very arrogant.Am I wrong in that assumption?

Smitty