Honduh's

[John Thomas]

**** stop taking everything so personal. I just want to know if someone has tired to improve the fi system. It is possible. And I don't mean reangled injectors. You know like a complete aftermarket system. I would be interested in annother dale if that could be accomplished. someone should contact Venom, it is a japanese company that build the best EFI in the business. Plus the next step in atv advancement is weight reduction. Im not puting down the cdale efi system I just want more out of it. Especially more hp production than a FCR carb. Has anyone produced an aftermarket manifold intake to increase air flow. Not a bored stock one but something designed well?

[John Thomas]

I never said the cdale efi sucks. I simply stated that a FCR carb will produce more hp when it should not at least by Jwheats facts. It should produce 15 percent less HP, but it doesn't. There should be a way to maximize the cdale efi system to reflect what the benefits should be. Mapping is a different issue and a huge benefit. We need to get efi hp production on par at least with carb hp production. All benefits weighed EFI is far superior. But it still doesn't account for the lost HP. Any ideas why the current system restricts HP production?

[John Thomas]

Im only interested in the best of what something can be not what it is. Everyting has potential it just needs tapped. I want to tap all the potential.

[IRONSIDE]

John, what type of riding do you do that would require a complete redesign of our EFI system?

[John Thomas]

I don't want some special application for say drag racing.......as an example. I ride everyting, motocross, cross country, GP, sand dunes, trail riding, snow, mud but not water.........haha. The efi has more benefits, it should do more. The motor should completely dominate the other carborated 450's or im not interested. IM NOT A HONDA GUY..........with that said honda uses lo tech at its max potential witch seems to always match or exceed higher technologies. I want more from the higher tech efi simply put. It is superior in all ways, it should refect that and it does not.

[jwheat]

QUOTE

Originally posted by John Thomas
I never said the cdale efi sucks.  I simply stated that a FCR carb will produce more hp when it should not at least by Jwheats facts.  It should produce 15 percent less HP, but it doesn't.  There should be a way to maximize the cdale efi system to reflect what the benefits should be.  Mapping is a different issue and a huge benefit.  We need to get efi hp production on par at least with carb hp production.  All benefits weighed EFI is far superior.  But it still doesn't account for the lost HP.  Any ideas why the current system restricts HP production?

John...I think your comparisons are not quite accurate or fair. A FCR carburetor is a larger opening than the throttlebody used by Cannondales. It WILL therefore increase HP but only in a certain rpm range, usually mid to high with a slight loss at lower rpm and a definite loss of low end torque. If the carburetor and the throttlebody were the same size, then the FI would produce more usuable HP in a much broader rpm range.

As far as weight....yes the fuel pump could be reduced in size, but the weight savings would be small(probably less than a 1/2 pound). The sensors and injectors are about average size for their application...so not much to be gained there. Now...you could put a larger throttlebody on the Dales and increase mid to upper rpm HP, but you would also increase the weight on that throttlebody and sacrifice low end torque. There is always a trade-off. The same applies to carburetors.

Fuel injection systems are improving everyday, whereas carburetor technology reached it's high point years ago.

[jacobw]

endless tuning possibilities are not enough?? I dont know of any 450 honda or yammis that put out 48hp shock like the atk does seems the fuel injection system works fine. You can add all sorts of fuel to the engine but without the air/fuel ratio being right on it wont produce the amount of power you are looking for! I dont think you can improve upon the design is works very well for stock and modded engines. You are going behond the limits of the engine not the FI systems, you can only force so much air into the air box. So mabe a turbo or supercharger is in store lol! Many have tried to improve upon the system with mixed results most are scrapped. I think cdale has the system well perfected. Why try to change something that works flawlessly. You wont find a carb the will out perform a FI system. The fuel metering in FI is perfect and does not produce flat spots like carbed engines

[Happyboy]

John, if all your posts were an attempt to help with ideas for improvement then I take my comments back. Maybe you should put them into a different thread and put your intentions in there.

Your prior posts were attacking the dales versus discussing a shortfall and suggestion. So don't back out now saying your intentions were pure.

[IRONSIDE]

You lost me John. Your first posts were nothing more than attacks on Cannondale and Dale owners. Your comments were about how much better carbs were than our "crappy" EFI that was developed in the '60s. Now your saying you want to help us improve the system we all love? How do you propose to do this?

[61austin]

OK, the FCR carb he is talking about is is 40mm and my stock throttle body is 42mm straight through so the carb isn't bigger.
I think this gain is from the different type of valve in the carb. The FCR uses a flat slide which when fully open there is nothing to restrict the ariflow. Our throttle body uses a butterfly which may not look like much of a restriction but it must be because there are several carb companies switching from the old butterfly to this flat slide design. I have thought about trying to make a flat slide throttle body but do not have the time or money right now, if I ever do I will let everyone know how it turns out.