Before it begin - The Jesus Tomb March 4th

[Happyboy]

QUOTE (aroracer72 @ Mar 6 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And as for the theories of how mankind/all life was created.......all the scientific explanations leave one important detail out.......WERE DID THE FIRST MATTER/CELL COME FROM TO START THE CHAIN OF EVENTS??!!!! And dont give me the "It was just there" explanation, NOTHING is just there. Someone or something put it there. Then your gonna say aliens put it there, well were did the aliens come from???.....see no longer can science explain this thats were God comes in, or some other superior being/power.
Chad

Oh I gotta bite on this. lol....

WERE DID THE FIRST MATTER/CELL COME FROM TO START THE CHAIN OF EVENTS??!!!! And dont give me the "It was just there" explanation

That is the EXACT same answer for where did God come from? He was just there? ah....devil's advocate

those people saying it was just there has exactly the same amount of merit as you saying God was there first. You can't exlplain how either one came to exist.....so why shoot theirs down when your explaination is just as absurd?

QUOTE (harleypitbull1 @ Mar 6 2007, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lets say this is what happens. No heaven, no nothing. I could probably be persuaded to believe this but we had to come from some where and only one way makes sense to me. Which do you guys believe is how we became to exist on this earth.

1. Big bang theory....... boom and here we are
2. Theory of evolution........ we evolved from a single celled organism
3. God created the universe and every living thing in it
Only one of these seems possible to me, what do you guys think?

all 3 work for me.....who made the big bang? god....god made a plan...a plan that started with what scientists are finding to be probable. theory of evolution....why couldn't god of simply started the ball rolling, with the end result being the same as what you think he started with day 1? Or maybe a mix of the two? To say it couldn't have happened period is putting limits on God. I have a very deep science background so its hard for me to blindly turn away from it.

[harleypitbull1]

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 6 2007, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I gotta bite on this. lol....

WERE DID THE FIRST MATTER/CELL COME FROM TO START THE CHAIN OF EVENTS??!!!! And dont give me the "It was just there" explanation

That is the EXACT same answer for where did God come from? He was just there? ah....devil's advocate

those people saying it was just there has exactly the same amount of merit as you saying God was there first. You can't exlplain how either one came to exist.....so why shoot theirs down when your explaination is just as absurd?
all 3 work for me.....who made the big bang? god....god made a plan...a plan that started with what scientists are finding to be probable. theory of evolution....why couldn't god of simply started the ball rolling, with the end result being the same as what you think he started with day 1? Or maybe a mix of the two? To say it couldn't have happened period is putting limits on God. I have a very deep science background so its hard for me to blindly turn away from it.

I am not asking you to turn away from a scientific background. I would agree with some points but I just do not feel that it is possible for everything that is inside our body that works so finely tuned together to have just came from a single celled organism. As you said, anything is possible, I just find it hard to believe. As far as the big bang theory and evolution, these are seperate theories that scientist have come up with, I am sure you already know this but the 3 options have never been put together like that, but who am I to say it did not happen that way. I just feel there is more factual evidence to back up that God created the universe.

[Smitty911]

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 6 2007, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I gotta bite on this. lol....

WERE DID THE FIRST MATTER/CELL COME FROM TO START THE CHAIN OF EVENTS??!!!! And dont give me the "It was just there" explanation

That is the EXACT same answer for where did God come from? He was just there? ah....devil's advocate

those people saying it was just there has exactly the same amount of merit as you saying God was there first. You can't exlplain how either one came to exist.....so why shoot theirs down when your explaination is just as absurd?
all 3 work for me.....who made the big bang? god....god made a plan...a plan that started with what scientists are finding to be probable. theory of evolution....why couldn't god of simply started the ball rolling, with the end result being the same as what you think he started with day 1? Or maybe a mix of the two? To say it couldn't have happened period is putting limits on God. I have a very deep science background so its hard for me to blindly turn away from it.

OOhhhhhh,, iiiiii ggoootttaaaaa bite on this one also. LOL One of Tom Clancys Books had a great line in it. "If your gonna pull the tigers tail, you better have a plan to deal with his teeth." Gotta love it. Book wasnt bad either.

If everything needs a creator, then who or what created God?
Below was taken from www.carm.org I don't have that kind of Horsepower upstairs. Sheep don't need brains they are a feeders. LOl

This question is logically problematic. If everything needs a creator, than no matter what exists, it must have been created. Furthermore, to be created means that someone or something had to create it. But then, who created the creator and so on? Logically, this would mean there would be an infinite regression of creators and we would never be able to find the first, uncaused cause since, by definition (the questions says that "everything needs a creator") there wouldn't be any uncaused cause. This would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal. But, if it exists that there is an eternal regression of creators, then who created the infinite regression of creators? Remember, the question presupposes that all things need a creator -- even the eternal sequence of creators -- which becomes logically absurd. Furthermore, if there is an eternal regression of creators that are eternal, then the question is not answered. In fact, it cannot be answered since it weakness is that "all things need a creator." Of course, this only begs the question in that how did the process begin? Therefore, the question only raises the same problem it asks and it is a question that, by its own design, cannot be answered. Therefore, it is invalid.

The question is better phrased as a statement: "Everything that has come into existence, was brought into existence by something else." This is a more logical statement and is not wrought with the difficulties of the initial question. In the revised statement "Everything that has come into existence," implies that the thing that "has come into existence" did not already exist. If it did not already exist but then came into existence, then something had to bring it into existence because something that does not exist cannot bring itself into existence (a logical absolute). This pushes the regression of creators back to what we would call the theoretical "uncaused cause" since there cannot be an infinite regression of creators as discussed above and since in infinite number of creators would mean there was an infinite number of creations and created things including things that cannot be destroyed since they would constitute things that exist. If that is so, then the universe would have had an infinite number of created things in it and it would be full. But it is not full. Therefore, there has not been an infinite regression of creations.

By definition, the Christian God never came into existence; that is, He is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). He was always in existence and He is the one who created space, time, and matter. This means that the Christian God is the uncaused cause and is the ultimate creator. This eliminates the infinite regression problem.

But some may ask, "But who created God?" But the answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.

Of course no one has to accept the above explination, but it is a VALID explination.

There reason we know that God did not start the "Ball Rollling" and Evolution works, is quickly dismissed in the Book of Genisis. GOD walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. Does that sound like he just up and left for a couple of billion years.

Natural Selections is a process that Evolutionist like to use to show how everything just happened by accedent and enviromental pressures. Yet, they have never been able to show a Transitional Fossil. Yes I read Talk Origins.org. All they have ever shown was FULLY FORMED animals. Some parts are relocated and that shows a transition. Yet there are no half formed Birds feathers, half formed gill systems, half formed anything. The Cambrian Explosion show LOTS of Fossils that "JUST APPEARED" fully formed. What happen to Evolution needs lots of time? Punctuated Equilibrium, evolution happens so fast that no fossils where made that caught the Transitional animals at mid point.

So which way is it?


Happyboy,

What is your deep scientific background? Just curious.


General observation below.

FYI - Calling people names neither strengthens your postion or weakens the other person view.

Smitty

[Happyboy]

QUOTE (harleypitbull1 @ Mar 6 2007, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just feel there is more factual evidence to back up that God created the universe.

Facts proving God created the universe or even exists? I gotta hear these. Sorry man, if there were facts backing this up then we wouldn't have to have faith.

[Happyboy]

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 6 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By definition, the Christian God never came into existence; that is, He is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). He was always in existence and He is the one who created space, time, and matter. This means that the Christian God is the uncaused cause and is the ultimate creator. This eliminates the infinite regression problem.

Of course no one has to accept the above explination, but it is a VALID explination.

Sorry, easy way out. Just to say something is true doesn't make it true. I can say that the great Derno sat on the universe (beer can) and squished it...then farted and blew it apart and the resulting pieces formed the universe. In the same way Derno is the uncaused cause.

Sounds a bit rediculus doesn't it? All you can do at this point is beleive in what happened and keep that to yourself. None of the explanations can be prooved or disprooved.

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 6 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There reason we know that God did not start the "Ball Rollling" and Evolution works, is quickly dismissed in the Book of Genisis. GOD walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. Does that sound like he just up and left for a couple of billion years.

So, god coulnd't have started the ball rolling then checked back in on adam and eve when they existed to say hi?

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 6 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is your deep scientific background? Just curious.
General observation below.

physic's degree with Math. I have had tons of chem and bio courses to go with it. Its not that i have done the work to prove different theories but i understand enough about science and what has happened to not turn my cheak to it because it says something different than what i was taught.

QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Mar 6 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FYI - Calling people names neither strengthens your postion or weakens the other person view.

Where did I call you a name? And in the same respect, talking down to people is just as bad as calling them an a$$ or a fool.

[harleypitbull1]

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 6 2007, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Facts proving God created the universe or even exists? I gotta hear these. Sorry man, if there were facts backing this up then we wouldn't have to have faith.

Sorry happyboy, I worded it wrong. I meant that there are facts that back up the bible. Tons of people saw what happened to jesus and all acts through out the bible. So if there is factual evidence to back up the bible and christians believe the bible to be entirely true, this would be facts that god created the universe, atleast facts enough for me.

[Happyboy]

So, smitty...the bible is 100% accurate....you beleive that John under the influence of the holy spirit wrote the below?

1 John 5:7????????8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

[cannondale27]

I have always entertained the idea that we might actually just be atoms and protons etc floating around in some giants body.Think about it

[harleypitbull1]

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 6 2007, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, smitty...the bible is 100% accurate....you beleive that John under the influence of the holy spirit wrote the below?

1 John 5:7????????8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

the first verse represents the trinity, I am not sure what your asking happyboy?
the father being god
the word being jesus
and the holy ghost

I would assume the 2nd verse means the same but not exaclty sure, it could be 3 parts of salvation represented, the spirit being god or the fact that you must believe that jesus died on the cross for your sins,the water representing the rebirth of jesus, which is symbolized through baptism and the blood meaning the blood that was shed by jesus on the cross

[Smitty911]

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 6 2007, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, easy way out. Just to say something is true doesn't make it true. I can say that the great Derno sat on the universe (beer can) and squished it...then farted and blew it apart and the resulting pieces formed the universe. In the same way Derno is the uncaused cause.

Sounds a bit rediculus doesn't it? All you can do at this point is beleive in what happened and keep that to yourself. None of the explanations can be prooved or disprooved.
So, god coulnd't have started the ball rolling then checked back in on adam and eve when they existed to say hi?
physic's degree with Math. I have had tons of chem and bio courses to go with it. Its not that i have done the work to prove different theories but i understand enough about science and what has happened to not turn my cheak to it because it says something different than what i was taught.
Where did I call you a name? And in the same respect, talking down to people is just as bad as calling them an a$$ or a fool.

Not exactly the easy way out. You also don't have to accept the explanation. If you believe that God created Time, space, than he would of course not be subject to it. So from a Christian prespective, this is an acceptable position, supported in the Bible.

The Derno thing I would have to question - I'm sure he could do the beer can trick, but what would it create? LOL

Or proved to my satifaction with a logical and Biblicial argument to support it.

If God would have checked out and popped back in than the Bible is wrong about his daily involvment with people Here and Now as well as the past. So no that is not what is recorded in the Bible, so to say he did other wise is speculation.

I don't have a degree but I read and ask alot of questions and look for "loop-holes" and where that puts me at the end of a pitcular thought. I have not seen enough evidence to support evolution - Common Descent. I believe in Natural Selection that has been proven. I read some of Talk Origins.

I don't turn the other cheek on Science either, I work in Fiber Optics. Science has it's place on telling you (the imperial you) what they think happened, not why it happened. To get the the Why you must look to Metaphyics.

With your education, you were trained to look for the most probably cause.

Well in chemisty I was taught the Life doesn't come from non life. Doesn't that scientific law, alone refute evolution?

In Philosophy - What is the purpose of life? Does any outside of God make sense? This of course is not saying that you or other people cannot or do not live a moral life, but it does question the why. Yes I understand that we could be doing good for goods sake but, What is good? That subjective in the Naruralist position.

If we have found sea shells at the top of every mountain range on the earth. Fossils are only found in sedimentary type rocks. Fossils only form when the animal is covered quickly and than left undistrubed for some time. That we find Fossil Beds where groups of animals have been found. If we calculate the volume of water on the earth, solid, vapor and liquid, isn't there enough to cover the entire earth.

Doesn't that point to a world wide flood?

The FYI was not directed at you more of a position statement, cause I was called arrogant by several people. Thats why I put a general statement. Could you give me an example of were I have talked down to people? That way I don't do it anymore.

Thanks

Smitty