check your Crankshaft/Trans Cart bolts!!

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4strokemadman
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

Crankshaft/Trans Cart bolts

#1 Post by 4strokemadman »

Guys,

I was an engineer for Cannondale. I would like to get a better handle on the problem so that when/if production starts back up we can thoroughly understand what is going on. E-mail me answers to the following questions:

1. Which bolts came loose on your machine (not your friends brothers cousin machine)?

2. Did you have the stud update kit installed?

3. Have the cartdridge plates ever been removed and re-installed?

4. Approximatly how many hours were on the machine?

5. What is your VIN number?

6. If the bolts came loose and you re-installed them did you notice any loctite on the bolts?

7. Have you re-installed bolts only to have them come loose again?

8. What type of riding do you primarily do (racing, trail riding etc..)?

9. Which model do you have?


Just to let you guys know the torque applied to these bolts is very important because the cartridge plates must seat properly. If they don't seat correctly then when you run the machine the plate will settle and the bolts will come loose.

BTW I don't know what the future of the company is, nobody will know until after the auction on March 20. I have my fingers crossed just like you guys that someone will come in and carry the torch.

p.hammerstrom@snet.net

Ryanstones
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#2 Post by Ryanstones »

No problems with this stud/nut on my 02 Cann #20.

dawzie
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#3 Post by dawzie »

I have a '02 cannibal #56. Walsh's Dad rebuilt this motor last April then I aquired the quad. I just got done removing the motor today. The 11 oclock ? trans bolt was loose. All others tight. I removed that bolt only and found no loctite. All the bolts are allen head. I have a stud kit that I am installing this week.

Ryanstones
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#4 Post by Ryanstones »

c'mon guys, answer these questions!

drbowtie
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#5 Post by drbowtie »

My machine is new and has never been apart... So I can't answer them... Only wait and keep checking to see if they get loose

cannondale27
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

Questions?

#6 Post by cannondale27 »

I can only answer the questions on my quad and Vannets quad since the only other quad with bolts that backed out at our shop happened around july this was a replacement motor we checked the other bolts (crankcase) they were tight and Cannondale just replaced the motor.
After that happened I removed the bolt in 11:00 on mine cleaned it and used red loctite torque to 22N.m it was tight I just wanted to be sure.I raced MX and TT all summer no problems last race the motor mount on right side started to crack off.With this motor I completely dissassembled it before it was returned to Cannondale the first two clutchfriction plates were bent pretty bad at the tabs valvecover was severly corroded.Intake valves were .001 tight all bolts were tight everything was in very good condition otherwise.
I now have a new motor which has the stud update already and performed same procedure as previous motor.
I commend you for asking these questions but I find it hard to believe that there werent other motors that came back to cannondale way back in july or even earlier.The answer you are looking for is simple dont look for which happens first the crankcase or tranny bolts fix them both.It should be assumed that everybolt in the motor will loosen eventually whether by human error or just plain mechanical forces.Maintainence schedules and safety clips wires or whatever need to be implemented to prevent damage.If you want dates and vin #s PM me but I know cannondale has these records for quite a while now if cannondales engineering dept is first getting a handle on this now then there was some very bad communication problems at the factory.Please tell me why I am wrong.

4strokemadman
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#7 Post by 4strokemadman »

Cannondale27,

This is not the first time we have recorded this problem. That is why the stud update kit was done. We saw the problem only with users that were racing, hence the stud update kit.

Let me back up a little. We had not had any recorded failures until July/Aug and to this date the failure rate is less than 1% of all engines produced in 2002. It took a while for us to come up with a solution that we felt would work. To solve a problem of this nature you have to try to understand the root cause. Was it an assembly error? Was there some type of oil on the bolts not allowing the loctite to cure properly? Was the torque procedure being followed on the line? Was there enough time allowed for the loctite to cure before engines were run on the assembly dyno? etc.... You have to exhaustingly eliminate each potential problem to get to the real deal. Once you do that you can come up with a solution. The solution was the stud kit. Since at the time the failure rate was around .05% and it was only racers the kit was offered as an upgrade.

I disagree with the fact that engine bolts will come loose eventually. I have worked closely with the Nacs team and have personally seen many many engines go over 200 hours without bolts losing torque, in fact we never put loctite on engines we tested in the dyno and those bolts never lost torque. One thing to consider is that if the cart plate is not installed correctly it will settle after it's been run a while. So no matter how much loctite, safety wire, tabs etc.. the bolts will have lost torque. Once the bolts have lost torque the plate and case will move relative to each other eventually breaking the cart plate if the bolts aren't tightened up.

What I am trying to do here is gather NEW information to make sure that there is not a NEW/DIFFERENT failure mode. I understand everyones frustration beleive me, I don't have a job right now and I am doing all of this on my own time because if I do get re-hired I want to hit the ground running and produce the best product we can. Thanks for all of your input. Every bit of input helps out.


-Paul

cannondale27
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#8 Post by cannondale27 »

4 stroke mad man,
That is the exact answer I was looking for.The first quad may have been Ice Raced but it was never jumpedIce racing is the same as most rec riders do in dunes or trail it is just more organized.I believe that the racing will make a problem show up sooner than normal and it can be assumed that it will eventually happen to everyone just takes longer.A dyno will never duplicate the forces put on a engine(frame flex,vibrations,different heating and cooling cycles).Plus then the human error factor.I commend you on trying to find the exact cause when time,money,labor,parts are factors that is what needs to be done.As a owner- racer those are not factors for me I will find a fix that is (idiot proof).
I am going to go under the assumption that all the quads are affected the stud update will be done to the crankplate and pump and when the right solution is found for tranny plate bolts that will also be done.Till then I will just check the bolt at 11:00 on trannyplate and reloctite visually checking other trannyplate bolts.
If this procedure is doing more harm than good then we need a procedure that is better.If you get the feeling that I dont trust my quad mechanicly you are 100% correct although I could say that about any machine we will fix it and move on.

drbowtie
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#9 Post by drbowtie »

If anyone has followed my posts it's quite easy to tell that I'm as concerned as the rest of us. However... lets not beat up the poor engineer.

Not only is he tring to help... He's doing it on his own time! He cares... That deserves respect. How many other engineers do you see attempting to get in the trenches with us to help solve a problem?

Thank you 4strokemadman... Please don't desert us!

Knight440
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#10 Post by Knight440 »

QUOTE
Originally posted by drbowtie
If anyone has followed my posts it's quite easy to tell that I'm as concerned as the rest of us.  However...  lets not beat up the poor engineer.  

Not only is he tring to help...  He's doing it on his own time!  He cares...  That deserves respect.  How many other engineers do you see attempting to get in the trenches with us to help solve a problem?  

Thank you 4strokemadman...  Please don't desert us!



Well said drbowtie smile.gif

4strokemadman I hope things work out for ya wink.gif

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