I own 2 Dales, so I'll never be able to afford it...aw well.
1988 Honda 250R vs Cannondale - Reliability?
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desertbound
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Low power?? You guys are crazy. I have not ridden my dale yet, so maybe I'm in for a suprise. My 250R was fast. ESR makes a 330 kit that is just as reliable as any big bore 4 stroke. I had a 89 250r from brand new until I bought my yfz in 2003. Top end every 3 seasons, pipe and silencer, and suspension. Thing was really fast. The 88's and 89's are the better of the four years they were produced. I never had frame issues. They are as reliable as any 2-stroke as long as you keep up on the maint. Maybe it is because I ride in the sand only, but I always liked mine.
Parts are everywhere, used, new, aftermarket, and stock parts are available from service honda. If you find one for anywhere under $2,000, especially an 88 or 89 in good condition, I'd hop on it. The cost to rebuild those motors is way under half of what a dale motor cost.
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Parts are everywhere, used, new, aftermarket, and stock parts are available from service honda. If you find one for anywhere under $2,000, especially an 88 or 89 in good condition, I'd hop on it. The cost to rebuild those motors is way under half of what a dale motor cost.
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thedeatons
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I'll weigh in on this because I had both a Dale and an R at the same time. My R had a 310 ESR top end (non-pv). My Dale is a 450 with some pretty good port work. In an all out sand drag, the two were pretty close. Usually the best hole shot proved to be the deciding factor. The R handles better than any quad I've ever riden. Its light, nimble, low center of gravity, and just feels right. The Dale handles good also, but the nod goes to the R in handling (imho).
I love two strokes, but I don't ride as aggressively as I used to. So, the four stroke torque is nice. The R requires more attention to gearing in and out of corners and on hill climbs. So I give the nod to the Dale in the motor department, understanding this is entirely subjective. 5 years ago I would probably have prefered the two stroke hit of the R.
As for parts, the R is very easy to find parts for. I've not had trouble finding Dale parts thanks to this forum. But, the nod must go to the R for ease of getting parts and quickly.
Reliability? I've had several Rs and all were reliable. I did break a frame in three places, but it wasn't gusseted. On the Dale I've broken two cradles (yes I have the motor mount update and have shimmed it best I can) and the tab for the lower left subframe mount. All of my Rs were highly modded so the suspension, a-arms and axles were all aftermarket and without issues. I've not had a single problem with the Dale short of the frame issues mentioned above. Maybe I don't ride as much as the next guy, but I didn't have to rebuild the top ends on mine all that often. I use premium oils in all my quads and in the R I mixed 40:1 (rather than 50:1 like many people). So, I can't give either the edge in reliability. Both have treated me well.
Cool factor? That is a tough call. The Rs still draw a crowd. The Dale gets more limited attention I think in part because many don't know what the heck it is. Those familiar with the Dales always stop and stare for a while. So both are cool in my opinion.
I think you'd be happy with either if it is set up for your riding needs. I still miss my R and expect I'll add another to the stable when money allows.
I love two strokes, but I don't ride as aggressively as I used to. So, the four stroke torque is nice. The R requires more attention to gearing in and out of corners and on hill climbs. So I give the nod to the Dale in the motor department, understanding this is entirely subjective. 5 years ago I would probably have prefered the two stroke hit of the R.
As for parts, the R is very easy to find parts for. I've not had trouble finding Dale parts thanks to this forum. But, the nod must go to the R for ease of getting parts and quickly.
Reliability? I've had several Rs and all were reliable. I did break a frame in three places, but it wasn't gusseted. On the Dale I've broken two cradles (yes I have the motor mount update and have shimmed it best I can) and the tab for the lower left subframe mount. All of my Rs were highly modded so the suspension, a-arms and axles were all aftermarket and without issues. I've not had a single problem with the Dale short of the frame issues mentioned above. Maybe I don't ride as much as the next guy, but I didn't have to rebuild the top ends on mine all that often. I use premium oils in all my quads and in the R I mixed 40:1 (rather than 50:1 like many people). So, I can't give either the edge in reliability. Both have treated me well.
Cool factor? That is a tough call. The Rs still draw a crowd. The Dale gets more limited attention I think in part because many don't know what the heck it is. Those familiar with the Dales always stop and stare for a while. So both are cool in my opinion.
I think you'd be happy with either if it is set up for your riding needs. I still miss my R and expect I'll add another to the stable when money allows.
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desertbound
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QUOTE (thedeatons @ Oct 20 2008, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That looks nice. Are you saying that you rebuilt the suspension every 3 seasons, along with the to end, and you replaced the pipe and can every 3 seasons?
I can't wait to hear your Dale comparison with that 250R...
Is yours a 330? What is the rebuild cost on a 330?
I can't wait to hear your Dale comparison with that 250R...
Is yours a 330? What is the rebuild cost on a 330?
I meant that I just freshened up the top end every three years. New piston, rings, and a fresh jug. Whether it needed it or not. It mostly did. Not that it was gonna blow up, but it was just time to refresh. It was a stock 250 from late 1988, when I got it, until 1999. I lost the stock crank then and built an ESR 330 power valve motor. That is what is in the picture. Before that I just had a k&n filter and a full fmf system. I also put a air strykercarb on it.
I had motowoz(the original motowoz before the factory burned down) on a laeger t-pin front end, and when I built the motor motowoz was out of business. I needed a rebuild but I couldn't get them rebuilt so I switched to elkas and a set of a arms I built. The first set ever. Ha ha ha
I'm sure you can get more out of a dale with a pipe, filter and minimal mods. For what I do the 250r was the most comfy and best handling quad I have ever owned. That is what drew me to the Dales. People compare their handling to the 250r. I poured tons into my yfz trying to get it to handle like my r. I also had about $1500 into the 330pv motor, and over $5,000 into the yfz motor to make it a little faster.
Like mentioned before, I just fell in love with the fourstrokes ease of riding. I like not having to worry about staying on the pipe to get everywhere. My 330 had pretty good torque, but it was a 330.
I have a feeling you ride a lot like I do. We basically MX the dunes. Not much into drag racing the hills. I mean that is fun, but not what I like to do. I think you would enjoy the R. It's never gonna be a dale, but with some time and a little money they are pretty quick.
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cannondale27
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Okay #1 we are talking different things here. Back in day 265cc was the limit. I know for a fact that the 250r's even modded with a 330ESR is not going to beat a Cannondale even slightly modded up a hill. Flat drags Yes R will win against some slower Dales. For all around conditions though a Dale will win.
#2 Have you guys sat on a 250r lately? Like said for all out racing its not a issue because you are mostly standing up anyway may even be a advantage. But sit on the seat.The ergos compared to ANY newer quad including Cannondale are just terrible for anything but all out racing. I noticed in pic alot of the 250's have a desert seat on them. Well that probably helps but it's not stock.
#3 Any quad can be made into whatever you dream but it costs $ alot of it. You need to look at the basic engineering of the quad right from the factory otherwise you will spend tons of $ fighting a losing battle and end up with a pretty much totally custom quad which can no longer really be called a Honda or whatever.
I raced mine (250r) mx, TT, Harescrambles and trial rode it. I did two ring jobs a year. Crank rebuild every year. Probably 3 sets of clutches. I bought a Mig welder BECAUSE of the 250r. Everyone I rode with was in same boat with tranny gears thrown in also once in awhile.
Desertbound I think you are going to be AMAZED at the power you are going to get and put to the ground with your Cannondale.
Here is 2001 Orrville OH AMA TT National race. Me on my STOCK cannondale #2. Yes it was holeshot and it was easy. I won every holeshot that weekend those were all 250r's and none were stock. Local races were same result time and time again against OPEN class R's with 330 Power valve motors even.The Cannondale made holeshots easy.
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#2 Have you guys sat on a 250r lately? Like said for all out racing its not a issue because you are mostly standing up anyway may even be a advantage. But sit on the seat.The ergos compared to ANY newer quad including Cannondale are just terrible for anything but all out racing. I noticed in pic alot of the 250's have a desert seat on them. Well that probably helps but it's not stock.
#3 Any quad can be made into whatever you dream but it costs $ alot of it. You need to look at the basic engineering of the quad right from the factory otherwise you will spend tons of $ fighting a losing battle and end up with a pretty much totally custom quad which can no longer really be called a Honda or whatever.
I raced mine (250r) mx, TT, Harescrambles and trial rode it. I did two ring jobs a year. Crank rebuild every year. Probably 3 sets of clutches. I bought a Mig welder BECAUSE of the 250r. Everyone I rode with was in same boat with tranny gears thrown in also once in awhile.
Desertbound I think you are going to be AMAZED at the power you are going to get and put to the ground with your Cannondale.
Here is 2001 Orrville OH AMA TT National race. Me on my STOCK cannondale #2. Yes it was holeshot and it was easy. I won every holeshot that weekend those were all 250r's and none were stock. Local races were same result time and time again against OPEN class R's with 330 Power valve motors even.The Cannondale made holeshots easy.
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C27 - I guess a little healthy debate is always good and I just can't resist defending the R. I appreciate your points, but I must say that the aftermarket cylinder Rs that I have had created great power. Our 350pv R was a monster and could hand it to most 450s including the few Dales it was up against. My 310R was also pretty powerful and put away several 450s including a highly modded YFZ and 450r. I realize comparing one quad to another is all very quad specific and very rider specific. With the prices of the Rs dropping, there are some nice ones for the taking. I bought mine and freshened up the top end for a total of $3400. . Here is a pic.
I personally like the way an R sits. I owned the R in the pic until August of this year so I've been on an R alot in the very recent past They fit me well and I'm not as comfortable on the newer quads (granted I've not riden the KFX, Can-Am, or KTM). The width of the Dale took some getting used to, but I've pretty well adjusted now. I do find the insides of my knees get more abuse on the Dale than on the R.
I might also add that the R really shines in the sand. While I ride dirt plenty through the year, my favorite riding is in the sand. This is one reason I usually keep an R and a four stroke around. In the end, as the years pile on I have come to prefer the four stroke and specifically the Dale, but every trip to the dunes I find myself longing to throw a leg over my R, smell the benoil, and let her rip.
I appreciate your comment about modding quads. But lets face it, if you are the type of rider that prefers width, more power, and quality suspension, you'll end up pooring the money into almost any quad. Certainly there are exceptions, ie Moto, but the front end price is certainly higher with those factory rides that come race ready (and how many quads other than the Moto, Blaze, Can-Am and KTM come from the factory in arguably race ready form).
I suppose the long and short is that quad selection has been and always will be personal preference. I happen to love the feel and power of an R, and many others do also. As I slow down I now appreciate the torque of the four stroke. My $.02.
I personally like the way an R sits. I owned the R in the pic until August of this year so I've been on an R alot in the very recent past They fit me well and I'm not as comfortable on the newer quads (granted I've not riden the KFX, Can-Am, or KTM). The width of the Dale took some getting used to, but I've pretty well adjusted now. I do find the insides of my knees get more abuse on the Dale than on the R.
I might also add that the R really shines in the sand. While I ride dirt plenty through the year, my favorite riding is in the sand. This is one reason I usually keep an R and a four stroke around. In the end, as the years pile on I have come to prefer the four stroke and specifically the Dale, but every trip to the dunes I find myself longing to throw a leg over my R, smell the benoil, and let her rip.
I appreciate your comment about modding quads. But lets face it, if you are the type of rider that prefers width, more power, and quality suspension, you'll end up pooring the money into almost any quad. Certainly there are exceptions, ie Moto, but the front end price is certainly higher with those factory rides that come race ready (and how many quads other than the Moto, Blaze, Can-Am and KTM come from the factory in arguably race ready form).
I suppose the long and short is that quad selection has been and always will be personal preference. I happen to love the feel and power of an R, and many others do also. As I slow down I now appreciate the torque of the four stroke. My $.02.
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cannondale27
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desertbound
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I'm not trying to say that one quad is better than the other. Different strokes for different folks. I was just trying to give my personal feelings. I never raced my R so I was obviously easier on it. I never even tipped it over in all those years. There are still tons of R's in the sand where I ride. Maybe it is just where they shine??
And yes, desert seats were and still are mandatory.
Well, not on the dale. The seat is plenty compfy on the glamis.
I should post some pics of the 3 wheelers I had.
And yes, desert seats were and still are mandatory.
Well, not on the dale. The seat is plenty compfy on the glamis.I should post some pics of the 3 wheelers I had.
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cannondale27
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