Walsh +3+1 Long travel
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MyCannibal
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
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jesshamner
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You know what...I'm sick of all this BS. I am just about finished with this forum. The only thing that keeps me riding my Cannondale is the great community but lately that has diminished. I MIGHT see some of you at the group ride. You can't have a good debate around here with all you "I'm taking my basketball and going home" crybabies. The guy is trying to sell some a arms and we're trying to figure out if they will work or not. You say they don't and I believed you. 311 says they do. And I am simply repeating the large amount or research that I have done on this topic sans mock-up and fitting.
My intent was to actually help the seller out by getting to the bottom of the correct application.
I have just about had it with this forum. I hope it is a happy place when I leave.
Walsh may have a different a arm mounting width. Nobody has disproven that with any factual evidence. They definitely have shorter upper a arms. Nobody is disputing that. Used with Cannondale spindles, it will cause a ridiculous amount of camber offset. Nobody is suggesting that. Used with 250r spindles, it will correct the camber issue. Geometry is concrete. The only real measuring that needs to be done is on the A-arm to frame mounting points. And I don't have Walsh a arms to do that measurement.
Good luck hontrx265r. I hope you can sell your a arms and that I haven't damaged this thread too bad.
My intent was to actually help the seller out by getting to the bottom of the correct application.
I have just about had it with this forum. I hope it is a happy place when I leave.
Walsh may have a different a arm mounting width. Nobody has disproven that with any factual evidence. They definitely have shorter upper a arms. Nobody is disputing that. Used with Cannondale spindles, it will cause a ridiculous amount of camber offset. Nobody is suggesting that. Used with 250r spindles, it will correct the camber issue. Geometry is concrete. The only real measuring that needs to be done is on the A-arm to frame mounting points. And I don't have Walsh a arms to do that measurement.
Good luck hontrx265r. I hope you can sell your a arms and that I haven't damaged this thread too bad.
Jess, I somewhat agree however someone may go grab something like this and think it will work perfectly who does not know any better. It may be fine, it may not. I have never personally tried either setup, but to be sure and not heresay if it will work or not exact measurements need to be taken to ensure everything will work smoothly REGARDLESS of using an entire 250r, 400ex, LTR, etc front end or not.
There are things you need to take into account such as balljoint AND tierod bind as well as shock lengths. Just because something fits does not mean it will work properly. I have seen many a machine with mixed and matched high end parts that handle and work like crap although they seem to fit just fine. Do you want the latest or best named parts that work poorly because they are not designed for your setup? or would you be better off with something that is designed for the application?
We would need someone to measure the bike with no shocks on it at all and sitting on a 2x4 to measure compressed length. This is critical because if your frame is bottoming before the shock it will NOT be good. Same thing with extended length. You want to put the machine on a 12 inch tall block/stand and take your measurement from eye to eye to get the correct extended lenght.
In addition to the above items you will want to check for tierod bind at the stem/frame and at the spindle through the entire range of travel AND with the bars turned stop to stop.
The last item although not super critical to safety and binding is bump steer. I again have seen several setups where at the last 1 inch of travel the front wheels toe much more than they should. This is not again a safety item like the others, but a performance issue that may render your expensive high end setup to be inferior to something that is lower end but designed specifically for the application.
Just my $.02
There are things you need to take into account such as balljoint AND tierod bind as well as shock lengths. Just because something fits does not mean it will work properly. I have seen many a machine with mixed and matched high end parts that handle and work like crap although they seem to fit just fine. Do you want the latest or best named parts that work poorly because they are not designed for your setup? or would you be better off with something that is designed for the application?
We would need someone to measure the bike with no shocks on it at all and sitting on a 2x4 to measure compressed length. This is critical because if your frame is bottoming before the shock it will NOT be good. Same thing with extended length. You want to put the machine on a 12 inch tall block/stand and take your measurement from eye to eye to get the correct extended lenght.
In addition to the above items you will want to check for tierod bind at the stem/frame and at the spindle through the entire range of travel AND with the bars turned stop to stop.
The last item although not super critical to safety and binding is bump steer. I again have seen several setups where at the last 1 inch of travel the front wheels toe much more than they should. This is not again a safety item like the others, but a performance issue that may render your expensive high end setup to be inferior to something that is lower end but designed specifically for the application.
Just my $.02
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jesshamner
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
I totally agree with you 2000ex. We just haven't got to those measurements yet. The 400ex shock has something like .5" or .75" extended stroke length. So I know that compression and extension tests need to be done. That evidence has not been presented on this website before and is one of the reasons I haven't mentioned that yet.
But to say that the absolutely will not work isn't fair either! And espcially because the upper arms are shorter than a stock Cannondale. That is not an valid argument because the spindles have different ball joint mounting points.
I really just wanted to help this guy sell the a arms and I thought it was unfair for someone to tell him that they just won't work based on inconclusive evidence. I just opened up the debate so maybe we could finally get to the bottom of this. I never intended for someone to blindly buy these thinking that they would just bolt right up in place of stock arms without any other changes, adjustments or modifications.
This....
And this....
I am done with this thread and possibly done with contributing to this forum. It seems like this happens a lot when I offer my 2 cents. I don't need it. I have presented you with my intentions you can take it or leave it. But I'm not dealing with unnecessary drama or sarcasm. Because I have never had a major catastrophe I don't much mechanical experience with these machines. So all I can offer is that experience and the research that I have done thanks to this website. You all can use the search tool like I did and do your own research from now on.
But to say that the absolutely will not work isn't fair either! And espcially because the upper arms are shorter than a stock Cannondale. That is not an valid argument because the spindles have different ball joint mounting points.
I really just wanted to help this guy sell the a arms and I thought it was unfair for someone to tell him that they just won't work based on inconclusive evidence. I just opened up the debate so maybe we could finally get to the bottom of this. I never intended for someone to blindly buy these thinking that they would just bolt right up in place of stock arms without any other changes, adjustments or modifications.
This....
QUOTE
Heck if you use a ENTIRE 300ex front it might work to. All I was trying to say was there IS a difference between 250r walsh a-arms and cannondale walsh a-arms. I was just trying to be helpful. I guess I should have known better.
...is just sarcasm that isn't necessary. And this....
QUOTE
Yep...maybe some people should relate to the topic before they open their mouths...
is a contradiction because this person didn't relate to the topic either. There was no facts presented, and is merely jumping to take a side without that evidence. I am done with this thread and possibly done with contributing to this forum. It seems like this happens a lot when I offer my 2 cents. I don't need it. I have presented you with my intentions you can take it or leave it. But I'm not dealing with unnecessary drama or sarcasm. Because I have never had a major catastrophe I don't much mechanical experience with these machines. So all I can offer is that experience and the research that I have done thanks to this website. You all can use the search tool like I did and do your own research from now on.
The for sale section isnt a place for debate . All I was trying to do is let some know that there is a difference. I think these are the best a-arms out there ! I have 2 sets ! I have called and talked to Walsh's people on this subject personally . I would not in jump into something if I wasn't sure. I am not trying to fight with you at all Jesshammer ! You should start a new thread in another spot and talk about this. What 311 shown us is great stuff ! One thing I have learned about cannondale's is the people that work on them amaze me everytime they work on them. Dont have the right part ! they make it or make something factory better. We are very lucky to have some very talented people around this forum.
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jesshamner
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
This is my last post on this thread. The moderators have the ability to move the posts into a new thread. I'm not starting one. Your point was moot because of the different spindles. Had you said that the frame mounting is off, I never would have disagreed. Yes the top arms are shorter than cdale's but the 250r spindle should correct the problem.
I'm done.
I'm done.
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motohybrid450
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
QUOTE (jesshamner @ Mar 3 2010, 04:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From what I read, the 250r arms with a cdale spindle creates 6 degrees of camber. If you use the 250r spindle there is no way that it retains that 6 degrees. So in theory, if you use the ENTIRE front end and the a arms bolt correctly to the frame, the 250r front end will work.
I talked to walsh yesterday and you are right the walsh 250R a-arms will work on a cannondale but not on a stock 250R frame.
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MX Quad Dad
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