Big dog dyno time

Message

theJeStEr1340 · #41 Post by **theJeStEr1340** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:12 am

What is done to your dad's cannibal?

cannondale27 · #42 Post by **cannondale27** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:49 pm

Had to make some pretty radical changes on his map for WanaBlaze's Dad (Very cool Dad by the way Josh.You're lucky). Was Exterminator2. Took 15% off entire map to get flowrate in a usable range. Not sure why but this one was extremely rich. I know just last week I said the new maps were close enough that dyno was optional but I am changing my mind after yesterday. If you spend the big $ on a highly modded motor get an AFR. OK Deaton let me have it

We spent 2.5hrs dynoing this one. Very happy with end results. Feel we got everything possible out of it and it runs great too.

cannondale27 · #43 Post by **cannondale27** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:54 pm

I got the charts from dyno.Give us time to see what is going on.But we all were not happy with the peak hp numbers.Nobody broke 60hp.Plans are to go back and try some things real soon here.

thedeatons · #44 Post by **thedeatons** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:13 am

LOL.... I am amused that you mentioned me! For real guys, so many people are spending lots of money for motors, and then washing the rings out because the "all-purpose map" is too rich. We have seen at least three in our group so far, I was fortunate enough to catch mine in time. Not only does the rich condition take ou the rings and weld them down the side of the piston, but it also sends fuel into the stator side main bearing through the oiling hole in the rod chamber (stator side). This washes the oil off that bearing and ruins it. We have seen that twice now. Main on stator side was fine before hand, then major crank wobble on that side after rings went.... Too bad. Either leave it stock or really do it right.

Nickc711 · #45 Post by **Nickc711** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:56 am

How will a very rich motor run...Choppy at idle?? if so......

thedeatons · #46 Post by **thedeatons** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:37 am

Rich is relative. An engine can be fine at idle, then totally off at 5k, then fine again later on up in the revs. That is the point, you don't know. You throw all this stuff in your engine, and you have NO idea how it will run. No one can seat of the pants guess a map, it is too precise. If you wanna guess then go get a carb and do plug chops. Why go to all this trouble of having flow rate matched injectors and expensive parts and then guess as to the fuel mixture. That's like feeding an athlete something with no ingrediant label.

The rich engines we have encountered that have imploded have seemed to run fine. There is no way to tell. Get to a dyno and shove the AFR probe up your Dale's butt, then you can see how it goes. The best way would be to tune the AFR for the most peak hp at 100% throttle, then use an idle screw with max throttle set to 50%, do a run at 50% (wide open with the throttle set screw in) and dial in the AFR at the 50% throttle portion of the map, then do the same for the 25% portion. After that blend it all in later while you are sitting at home. This would be the best way to work it. If you don't know what is lean or rich the dyno operators should be able to tell you. Some engine like to run more lean, others more rich. There is no "map" for every engine. The factory got them close, but just like cam timing you can find a lot of hp by fine tuning.

I would say for the majority of people this may not be an issue, like some of the updates that are questioned on the forum. We ride dunes, wide open throttle all day for 4 days every month, so you can see how an engine could grenade quickly. Lots of power is required for engines to churn sand with paddles, and every bit of available power is used.

cannondale27 · #47 Post by **cannondale27** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:50 am

I wont go that far as to washing out the rings.It takes alot of gas in the oil to do that and it would be noticable since you would have a very crappy running quad. Deaton it might be a issue with your practice of only using 1qt of oil in motor that contributes to what you are having happen. All the quads that were rich had a really bad hesitation and black smoke out exhaust. They did also have a crummy idle and didn't start the greatest.

cdsracer · #48 Post by **cdsracer** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:58 am

QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Dec 18 2007, 02:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wont go that far as to washing out the rings.It takes alot of gas in the oil to do that and it would be noticable since you would have a very crappy running quad.Deaton it might be a issue with your practice of only using 1qt of oil in motor that contributes to what you are having happen.All the quads that were rich had a really bad hesitation and black smoke out exhaust.They did also have a crummy idle and didnt start the greatest.

If they had a crummy idle and didn't start the greatest, then the tune sucked at the bottom end.

We've seen these failures in several engines (probably 4 or 5). One was built by me. Several others built/tuned and run by others.

Recent failure had been run for about 4 days on Oregon dunes. It had not yet been dyno'd. Ran very strong, started and idled well. Just before it quit, rider was WOT for 1/2 mile runs in 5th gear for about 30-40 minutes. And no, it did not overheat. 5 Other quads survived same beating with no ill effects.

In any case, if you want power and reliability, do it right and go to the dyno. Or, do it wrong and do it again, your choice. I certainly encourage anyone who purchases a built motor to tune it/have it tuned correctly. In a fuel injected engine, rich is not "safe" like with a carb'd motor.

thedeatons · #49 Post by **thedeatons** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:46 am

I think we kept most of the pistons that this happened to. Believe it or not, we saw it. One of the ATK riders on this site recently had the same problem, rings washed down the side of the pison. That was before he met us. He never dyno'd his engine, and guess what happened. Like I said, believe it or not it is happening. It also happened on a C440 in our group. Too rich, goodbye rings down the side of the piston. There is no reason for us to lie about this. We are trying to warn everyone. I think 3-4 engines with the same failure is worthy of noting. Dyno or else. It doesn't matter, it's not my $1000 worth of go-fast parts....

cannondale27 · #50 Post by **cannondale27** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:58 pm

Why not take some pics so we can see this.

Here are the runs.Might be a run or two somewhere that is a slight bit higher but these are for sure high average.Dyno was upgraded a few months ago may now be reading a bit lower than last years motors also possibility the load setting was on on dyno or maybe even bad gas since all were running pump race gas which could cause all symptoms or might just be low.We will find out.Soon.

[attachment=5177:Dyno505_Dec07.jpg]