info please......

Message

big.elk.hunter · #1 Post by **big.elk.hunter** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:12 am

What can anybody tell me about this bike and these two motors?
#5b6c11c02b000129
#MAA5B1000763
#MAA5B1000554

Also what is the differnce of all the internals of a cable clutch motor and a hyd. clutch motor? could the parts be swapped from one to another? or how hard is it to convert a cable clutch to a hyd?

one more (for now)....
what is the differences of the cams? I opened up one of these motors (#763) to check it out and noticed that the intake cam has a silver coating on it and the exhaust cam has a black coating on it. and my speed cams are both black. any info is greatly appreciated!! thanks

chris

kdeal · #2 Post by **kdeal** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:04 pm

QUOTE (big.elk.hunter @ Jul 6 2006, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What can anybody tell me about this bike and these two motors?
#5b6c11c02b000129
#MAA5B1000763
#MAA5B1000554

Also what is the differnce of all the internals of a cable clutch motor and a hyd. clutch motor? could the parts be swapped from one to another? or how hard is it to convert a cable clutch to a hyd?

one more (for now)....
what is the differences of the cams? I opened up one of these motors (#763) to check it out and noticed that the intake cam has a silver coating on it and the exhaust cam has a black coating on it. and my speed cams are both black. any info is greatly appreciated!! thanks

chris

The internals are completely swapable between cases.

The conversion is fairly straight foward, but you will need a good machinist and a welder to fill in the old cavity left behind by removing the actuating shaft.

There were different versions and possbily vendors on the camshafts. The silver/black combo is the prefered set of cams to have if you had a choice. There is no difference in profiles, but possibly there is a lack of timing adjustment on the Speed's cams depending on whether they have the timing adjustment notches under the cam gears.

azcannon · #3 Post by **azcannon** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:57 pm

Don't forget about the different width of the cranks and the
2)flywheel side crank seal and the
3)starter clutches and the
4)crankplate oil o-ring set up for oiling tubes to the head
5)stator / flywheel clearance issue with the old style crank.
6)probably ned to shim the crank going from cable to ssm

I might think of more but I like the cable/unicorn cases much better .

kdeal · #4 Post by **kdeal** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:58 pm

QUOTE (azcannon @ Jul 6 2006, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't forget about the different width of the cranks and the
2)flywheel side crank seal and the
3)starter clutches and the
4)crankplate oil o-ring set up for oiling tubes to the head
5)stator / flywheel clearance issue with the old style crank.
6)probably ned to shim the crank going from cable to ssm

I might think of more but I like the cable/unicorn cases much better .

If he is swapping the internals from one case to the other, he should have no problems EXCEPT when using the short snout crank from an early cable clutch case in a newer hydro case. The starter clutch assmbly as a whole with cover is interchangable, as is the crank plate/ oil tube fitting. In other words you need to use the right starter clutch with it's cover, and the fitting with the right cartridge plate. I have shimmed just about every crank I have installed in any combination of parts (early, late, hydro case, cable case, Falicon, etc.) I use the same early model crank seal in all cases, due to the lack of contact with the crank on the newer seal's second lip. (The only difference in the seals is the width 5mm vs 7mm)

****BUT PLEASE HEED AZCANNON'S ADVICE ON THE SHORT SNOUT CRANK TO STATOR CLEARANCE ISSUE****

azcannon · #5 Post by **azcannon** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:46 am

All very true I don't think I would use a 5 mm seal in a ssm case though because if it pivots it can cause a leak but if you used a little rtv you could probably keep it from leaning over. I have had many motors apart at the same time and I am used to looking for the right parts now , nothing like being almost finished and having to tear it back apart somewhat.

big.elk.hunter · #6 Post by **big.elk.hunter** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:27 am

ok guys bear with me on this for a while!!!......
Here is my situation......
My '02 speed motor had the infamous rod/crank bearing failure. so I bought two other motors (and an x440 frame) and want to use one of the motors which has very few hours on it and swap the internals to my hyd. case to run in my speed. I do plan on doing the z400 bearing upgrade in the process.
So when you say "ssm" case, does that mean all hyd. cases? os are some hyd. cases ssm and some not?
And what is the "unicorn" case? are my x440 motors unicorn cases? would I be better off to use one of them?
Also, if I put the crank out of the x400 motor into the speed case, how do I make sure all the clearances or correct? (short snout vs long snout).
thanks alot for the info!!!!!......

chris

or should I just freshen up the x440 motor and put a cable clutch on my speed and be done with it???? thanks again!!

chris

azcannon · #7 Post by **azcannon** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:51 am

a unicorn case is a cable clutch case with a hydraulic conversion done to it. The bike motor has a different valve cover and clutch basket/crank gears

kdeal · #8 Post by **kdeal** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

QUOTE (azcannon @ Jul 6 2006, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All very true I don't think I would use a 5 mm seal in a ssm case though because if it pivots it can cause a leak but if you used a little rtv you could probably keep it from leaning over. I have had many motors apart at the same time and I am used to looking for the right parts now , nothing like being almost finished and having to tear it back apart somewhat.

AZ: So true!!

BigElkHunter:

If you want to sell one of those clutch basket/gear combos out of the one of the X440 motors or trade for a quad version with the needle bearing update already done to it, let me know.

#13atk · #9 Post by **#13atk** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:37 pm

Chris, I live in Boise and I could give you a hand if you need any help. I just rebuilt my atk over the winter...Cory

Canniboomer · #10 Post by **Canniboomer** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:39 pm

QUOTE (azcannon @ Jul 6 2006, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All very true I don't think I would use a 5 mm seal in a ssm case though because if it pivots it can cause a leak but if you used a little rtv you could probably keep it from leaning over.

you have to use something to hold the thinner seal inward, when installing to an SSM case...a backer o-ring works perfectly to retain the 5mm seal squarely, and to keep it from wandering without any increased side pressure -- I use the same stock o-ring as we use on the piston pin access covers (1.7mm thickness). The slightly larger OD o-ring squeezes in firmly, for a total of 6.7mm replacing 7mm. I provide the 5mm's in our seals kits, and separately with the o-ring in a tougher version (viton).

Also note the cable motors may sometimes surprise you with a vintage aluminum valvecover, or metal oil pump gears. But the earlier clutch basket may use a bushing, instead of the later dual-bearing setup (not a big concern unless you sit and idle a lot, like a street-legal bike sitting in traffic -- you can check the bushing for any excess wobble wear).