where to find all the updates?

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mxracer776 · #1 Post by **mxracer776** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:50 pm

i'm new to the cannondale and have been looking around for as much info as possible.from what i've found the cannondales had alot of problems and alot of solutions.i've found allsorts of updates like engine stud,air breather hose,crank work,motors mount and more.i was kinda surprised that there isn't a sticky thread that would explain these problems alittle and the update for it.i'm just thinking that if i put my motor together and later find out that i need to do something else that this kind of thread would help.

kdeal · #2 Post by **kdeal** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:01 pm

Skip the stud kit and just make sure to update the crank bearing and use red loctite on every bolt under the big engine side cover. Cannondale27 has a post somewhere with a long list of mods/updates that is as complete as anything out there done by Timbo a while back. I just rebuilt a stock motor and there isn't so much as a lot of updates as there is just checking everything instead of just putting it back together. Anyone can tear it apart, replace parts and put it back together (this motor lasted 15 minutes previously). The key is to check everything! That's how the Cannondale community was able to diagnose and fix all or most of the problems with this motor. You would be surprised how much this community has contributed to the motor. Send me a PM and I will give you a link to all the factory updates.

wayneschofield · #3 Post by **wayneschofield** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:58 pm

QUOTE (kdeal @ Jul 31 2007, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Skip the stud kit and just make sure to update the crank bearing and use red loctite on every bolt under the big engine side cover. Cannondale27 has a post somewhere with a long list of mods/updates that is as complete as anything out there done by Timbo a while back. I just rebuilt a stock motor and there isn't so much as a lot of updates as there is just checking everything instead of just putting it back together. Anyone can tear it apart, replace parts and put it back together (this motor lasted 15 minutes previously). The key is to check everything! That's how the Cannondale community was able to diagnose and fix all or most of the problems with this motor. You would be surprised how much this community has contributed to the motor. Send me a PM and I will give you a link to all the factory updates.

I disagree on the stud kit....

Why not ask C27 if he is thinking of doing some copies of the kit I sent him to try. Use PROPER studs and you'll never have a problem and you can strip it many times without the case threads pulling or stripping. You also get more clamping force, better location, no case surface 'pull-up', more thread engagement and no coming loose. Loctite is great but has it's drawbacks for repeated use (which means us....). I can get some more stud sets made if you want me to but I am very busy with other things just now...

TBH, you'll probably save money and hassle if you just give the motor to one of the 'usual' builders, C27, Wistech, Timbo, BW etc. and give them a price to work with.... I'm sure you'll get your money's worth....

I agree we should post a 'sticky' updates summary with a approx 'cost to do' so that newcomers can see what they're getting into...

BTW, I should have your flywheel on it's way in the next couple of days Ken......

kdeal · #4 Post by **kdeal** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:54 pm

Wayne,

I ran drag cars for a few years and was a pretty good engine builder (specializing in short blocks) I have had plenty of experience with studs in a lot of race applications. I have built quite a few Cannondale motors as well. I have not seen any failures in the lower ends associated with the cartridge plate bolts that I have rebuilt, only in factory motors where little to no loctite was used. I agree about the physics involved, but the factory introduced the cartridge plate stud kit (on just 6 bolts only) due to never having figured out the crank problems. I know C27 helped introduce the Stage 8 kit with locking heads, but they have all became kind of old news and deemed unneeded. I would love to see some more R&D on this subject. I love the stud kit you made up by the way & will probably contact you when I build my drag motor.

cannondale27 · #5 Post by **cannondale27** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:37 am

I need the studs because my motor has been taken apart 3 times at least.The factory threads were a very sloppy fit to begin with and now they are worse.Studs solved that problem.But I do agree in most case that arent being taken apart every year which you wont have to do if done right Loctite properly done is all thats needed.Not sure though if I would trust most to do it properly though.Hence Stage8 or Nordlocks.
Here is the mandatory updates.More could probably be added since better stuff comes all the time and we learn.

mxracer776 · #6 Post by **mxracer776** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:41 am

thanks for the ideas. what i was saying is a sticky thread that would explain things like"what a new cannondale owner should beware of and what to look for and how to fix it before it's to late.when i got my cannondale i got it for $150. it turned over and had spark and it had no compression.if it had ran i probly would have rode it a little bit and then gone over it but it didn't. when i took off the big cover i noticed the oil pump drive gears where stripped.as i got into it further i saw what had happened. some of the cartridge bolts fell out and some where ripped out and did some damage.so now as i evaluate my engine and decide what to do(and save up money)i have been searching the internet for as much info as possible so when it gets done it gets done right.from what i have read and seen you guys on this site know an awful lot.some of the info i have gathered i found reading old posts,lots of searching and asking questions i have got alot of info.the thing is that some of the info i hear about (air breather tube mod)and you guys have been doing this for so long that you all know what it is about but i coundn't find any info on this.so i thought that a sticky thread on updates and fixes would be a good idea.--------------------i read timbomoose's update post.that is the kind of thing that should be stickied. thanks

kdeal · #7 Post by **kdeal** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:13 pm

Go to the Home Page and click on the "Technical & Custom Maps" link, scroll down the page and you will find most of the Factory updates including the oil vent line hose update you are inquiring on.

claas900 · #8 Post by **claas900** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Off topic,but C27 and Wayne I saw a pic of your stud kit,cant find it now but I wanted to give a tip,tho you may beware of it already Stud # 7 if its to long will hit the clutch basket. Don't ask me how i know this..lol.

cannondale27 · #9 Post by **cannondale27** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:39 pm

Yes.Thanks.Here is lengths Wayne came up with.I got same.

Hi Steve

I sorted all the stud lengths out this week in my spare case.

For anyone reading these are NOT regular studs and have been custom made for the job in the UK by an F1 supplier on a 'no expense spared' basis.

All the following lengths are based on hole depths of 22.5mm to the deepest part of the hole. there was a little variation in some of the holes in my cases so be careful on the studs behind the flywheel and oil pump gears to be sure you have adequate clearance.

The bolts are numbered in torque sequence on page 101 of the manual.

Those numbered:-

1, 8 & 9 need studs that are 45mm long overall.
2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 are 40mm long overall
7 is 41.5mm long and needs a nut just 6mm thick max when using Nord-lock washers.

The gearplate bolts are pictured on page 142. They are the ones ringed in the picture.

The top left hole has no bottom in the case so you can use a stud 45-50mm long for this hole. I put plenty of locktite around it and then put a washer and nut on the stud and tightend it to about 10 lbs just to force the locktite to the unloaded side of the thread. When screwed into the hole this stud top needs to be 20mm out from the case when using Nord-locks and k-nuts.
The top middle, top right and middle left studs are 40mm long.
The middle right stud is 45mm long.
The right oilpump stud is 51mm long.
The left oilpump stud is 54mm long.

So, in summary, to do a 'full job' you need:-

8 x 40mm studs
1 x 41.5mm stud
4 x 45mm studs
1 x 45-50mm stud (make this one last in case you make a mistake with one of the others as this one's length is less critical)
1 x 51mm stud
1 x 54mm stud

I dropped some red locktite into the blind holes and tightend them slowly to force the locktight up around the threads to guarantee full thread coverage. I then torqued the studs to 18lb-ft into the case and then wiped away the excess locktite.

I recommend a torque setting of 27lbs-ft for the k-nuts with Nord-lock washers. If your case threads are bad you might want to go a little less, but bear in mind that you should be using about 8mm of 'fresh' threads that you have created by tapping the holes to the bottom with your #3 tap.

I hope to have some proper pics and instructions for this 'fix' some day soon.

If we do decide to create these as a kit (basically, if there is enough interest) I will have the studs made to exact lengths to start with to suit holes of an exact depth. This will mean setting a drill up with a travel stop so that all the holes can be drilled to say, exactly 23mm depth. This way we can control any variations between cases safely and drilling holes properly is a lot easier than shortening studs properly.

I hope the above helps....
Last edited by WayneSchofield : 07-08-2007 at 11:35 AM. Reason: missed a bit out...

wayneschofield · #10 Post by **wayneschofield** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:40 am

QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Aug 1 2007, 03:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But I do agree in most case that arent being taken apart every year.....

I was thinking annual re-builds are the norm.... are they not?

I just don't like digging set locktite out of threads so it doesn't interfere with torque readings next time.... I didn't like the 'witness' marks where the plate had been moving about.... I didn't like the minimal thread engagement into Ally....

Trouble is, I'm just plain lazy I think, I tend to try and do something now to make life easier later on....