New to mapping

[Sand_Blaster]

After two years of owning my Dale I finally bought a D&M kit for it. Well both me and my dad need some maps for our tricked out dales, for this summer bashing.

For my dads 2003 Glamis:
Boomer air filter set-up , HMF exhaust , timbo +2 stroker crank , boomer tank mods.

its running rich right now from previous map we had loaded into it.

For my 2003 Cannibal:
Boomer air filter set-up , FMF Ti exhaust , CM ported head & throttle body , CP 450 piston 12:1 , boomer tanks mods.

I need a perfect map for this motor, any ideas what would work? cause I think all timbos maps are for stroker motors.

thanks for the info guys( if provided )

[thedeatons]

You will need to make your own maps while the quads are on a dyno. Anything else and you risk losing all those parts due to lean or rich conditions, especially considering your screen name. What I mean by that is that you must ride dunes A LOT.

Dune riding has different effects on the engines than trail riding. Dunes are taxing on the engine, you are subjecting the engine to conditions it can not overcome, such as hauling up a hill in third gear, losing rpms due to load (steepness of the hill), shifting down to 2nd, losing rpms due to load (steepness of the hill).

Dunes can keep you at one rpm for an extended period of time, like when climbing a hill, and if your AFR is not safe at that particular rpm, then you have the possibility of catastrophic failure. We have had three catastrophic failures at the dunes due to not dyno tuning for the proper AFR. We lost 2 450 CP pistons, and a Wiseco. Lots of money that could have been saved with proper tuning.

Now we run anything on the dyno with modifications above and beyond a pipe and open air filter. For those two simple mods a Moto map is safe.

Dyno time here in Boise is about $50 for a quad, with as many runs as we need. We happened to meet a fellow quad tuner (jap quads) who likes to use his dyno, so he gave us that good price.

You will need map editing software to do this properly, and will need a dyno with a sniffer for the exhaust to test AFR. Preferably an ATV dyno or motorcycle dyno with a spare roller for the quad's extra wheel.

We are in Boise and can help out. You are looking at around $100-$150 to get them both dyno'd. The outcome will be whatever horsepower numbers you end up making, along with a safe AFR throughout the powerband. You will go home with a printout of both. Let me know if you are interested.

[Sand_Blaster]

I'm all the way out in Oregon thats a far drive for us. We don't have any local dynos that would let us use our dales on it.

[thedeatons]

Okay... Well then - If it were me, after what has happened to us, and the fact that you ride sand, I would drive somewhere, or ship the quads to someone familiar with mapping Dales to have it done.

While that may seem silly, ask yourself whether you want to spend time and money on rebuilds because they were not mapped correctly.

Seat of the pants will NOT give you the right AFR. You may be in the ballpark, but how can you test each rpm at each throttle opening?

Not trying to harass, just want to be honest so there are no surprises when your engine doesn't last because of seat of the pants mapping. These engines are very precise, and very high strung. Running them in the sand puts them even more on the edge. Properly tuned they will be flawless, but anything less and you risk your engine.

[cannondale27]

You are going to have to do something. It's part of modding any motor.

Do you have a D&M?

Maybe you can find someone who will let you use a AFR meter. I would think that using that and finding a area with a nice hill and long run you should be able to make a good tune. Probably very close to what dyno will do. It helps to have another quad do runs with you to get a good comparison as far as if your gaining powerwise also. Don't forget also that adjusting flowrate and offset alone often can make things worse since it will correct one area and make the other area worse. Mapping is way to do it.

Otherwise give Timbo a call and he can recommend a map for you. Just remember only real way to know is the AFR. If your getting hot don't keep running it and if your stumbling and fouling plugs don't keep running it like that either.

[Sand_Blaster]

I have a D&M loaded and ready for activation once Scooter gets back in the shop tomorrow.
Well for mine this is where it would be tricky. I still have to break in mine, I can't run it until I find a proper map for it.

I called Tim, hopefully he gets back to me soon.
thanks 27.

[speedracer]

Can't he just run proven maps for his application?

[thedeatons]

Honestly the only way to have a "proven map" is to use a dyno with an AFR for that particular quad. One my friend's quad we had a 450CP with Timbo porting, and used one of Tim's recommended map. The map was too rich and the engine seized in the Oregon dunes last year. This is no fault of Tim's. He specifically says the maps are just to get you running, until you can tune the engine properly. We didn't do that, and a lot of money was lost. Now she is back to running an ASSO piston, because she just can't afford another CP. This could have been avoided for less than $100 and one hour of dyno time with a good "map artist".

Mapping is pretty easy, as you only have to get a few key points correct then blend the rest. The throttle limiter screw is a great tool, because you can set it to only allow for a 25%, then a 50%, and 100% throttle opening, so you know exactly where to tweak the map, just hold the throttle wide open against the pre-setup screw during each dyno run.

Many people associate dynos with making a bunch of horsepower and that they are for bragging only. Honestly, I don't care what numbers I get, I just want the engine to safely take whatever I want to throw at it.

I can't say it enough.... Dyno-dyno-dyno! I am only 30 minutes over the Oregon border, plan for a weekend, bring your quads out in running condition (at least idling) and we can get them right. It will just take a little coordination with the dyno operator, and a bit of cash.

[Sand_Blaster]

If you can honestly get me and my dad moving like you said.. I might actually make the trek out there.
Course I'll let a master Cannondale person like your self do everything cause if this quad blows up again on me then I'm done with Dales lol. Well on 2nd thought probably not

[kdeal]

QUOTE (thedeatons @ May 21 2008, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Honestly the only way to have a "proven map" is to use a dyno with an AFR for that particular quad. One my friend's quad we had a 450CP with Timbo porting, and used one of Tim's recommended map. The map was too rich and the engine seized in the Oregon dunes last year. This is no fault of Tim's. He specifically says the maps are just to get you running, until you can tune the engine properly. We didn't do that, and a lot of money was lost. Now she is back to running an ASSO piston, because she just can't afford another CP. This could have been avoided for less than $100 and one hour of dyno time with a good "map artist".

Mapping is pretty easy, as you only have to get a few key points correct then blend the rest. The throttle limiter screw is a great tool, because you can set it to only allow for a 25%, then a 50%, and 100% throttle opening, so you know exactly where to tweak the map, just hold the throttle wide open against the pre-setup screw during each dyno run.

Many people associate dynos with making a bunch of horsepower and that they are for bragging only. Honestly, I don't care what numbers I get, I just want the engine to safely take whatever I want to throw at it.

I can't say it enough.... Dyno-dyno-dyno! I am only 30 minutes over the Oregon border, plan for a weekend, bring your quads out in running condition (at least idling) and we can get them right. It will just take a little coordination with the dyno operator, and a bit of cash.

James,

I have watched while you have quoted the above statement many times to people. I believe that you have scared quite a few as well. Let me tell you one thing that I know that is proven. Anyone who would use a sand testing ground on a brand new motor wide open in 4th & 5th gear before the rings have seated does not know enough about motors for me to take advice from. End of point. I have seen motors melt down that were broken in and with a proper AFR and dynoed that blow in the conditions you ride in ONLY. I have riden new motors (after break in) for months without a proper tune with no adverse effects. You ride only in the sand, that is by far the worst environment for a motor. Not everyone does the same. I ride trails and don't see the loads you do in the sand. I have also properly tuned a motor with an AFR meter and some hard riding such as C27 mentions above. A dyno is not absolutely needed for tuning a motor. It does put a load on the motor while you get AFR readings, but I can do the same thing with a portable AFR meter while riding. Yes it's harder, but I save alot of money and can dial it in before ever going to the dyno.

I also have another tip for you, throw an oil pressure gauge on your bike while you ride in the dunes. You may find out that 1 quart of oil is not enough to keep full pressure on the motor while you are riding. Also, don't forget that engine oil is a coolant as well. Would you run your bike with 3/4 of the coolant as well?

Ken