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cannondale27
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Honestly only reason I say to use a dyno is I am never sure whether someone is going to take time to tune manually.Often before I will go to dyno I will have almost 3hours on mine.If I go to my testing spot and spend 4hrs tuning by ear and with another quad for comparison sake the tunes end up very close.Dyno just maximizes.But it takes time and you need a place to do it.Think about it we jetted carbs for almost 50 years before this.Hesitation,hot motor or fouled plugs,black smoke are all warning signs of being on extreme end of tuning if none of that about only thing not going to dyno will do is loss of HP.
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thedeatons
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Thanks for your opinions Ken...
I have actually scared myself away from any tuning too! Especially after the pistons I have seen that are fried, engines siezed. Dunes are the harshest load environment due to the extreme hills and continous revs. I don't tune seat of the pants because it has never worked out well, so I try to share my experience with others, so they may be warned properly. I never mentioned running a quad in the dunes to break it in, not sure what you mean there?
We break ours in at the dirt for at least a couple hours using the procedure form the manual.
Regarding the oil I say use as much as your engine can without hydrolocking. I know from experience that all of our Dales that ride in our group hydrolock with any more than 1 full quart. So, knowing that, this is why I share that with people. If you can run more fine, go for it! I don't mind. If your quad won't start all of a sudden after an oil change, then you've put too much in. In our case (remember we have like 20 Dales in our riding group) 1.5 qts is TOO much. That doesn't mean it is for everyone. Steve can run 1.5, and good for him. A starting point should be 1 qt, and then go from there. Keep adding until your quad will not start, then you have found the max:)
2 points:
1) Ever since we have started dyno tuning, we have had no problems wth engines other than the odd flywheel spinning or frozen relay in winter. Simple external problems.
2) Ever since we all started running 1 qt of oil we have not had hydrolock/startup issues.
Knowing those two things, and the amount of Dale in our immediate group, leads me to believe we have found some solutions to our old problems. I run status lights, and don't get overheat warnings ever. It's always a yelling contest when it comes to these two issues, but once again these are proven points within our group.
When you boil it all down, people are going to do whatever they want anyway. I just give advise from findings that we have proven over and over again. I have people PM'ing me that I don't even know and I tel them to try a couple things, and it works every time. People are puking oil and there quads won't start, and I tell them to reduce the oil to 1 qt, and it works. I'm just being honest here. I appreciate everyone's opinion, just like I hope they appreciate mine. I try to weigh each situation individually and give advise based on that particular situation.
I have actually scared myself away from any tuning too! Especially after the pistons I have seen that are fried, engines siezed. Dunes are the harshest load environment due to the extreme hills and continous revs. I don't tune seat of the pants because it has never worked out well, so I try to share my experience with others, so they may be warned properly. I never mentioned running a quad in the dunes to break it in, not sure what you mean there?
We break ours in at the dirt for at least a couple hours using the procedure form the manual.Regarding the oil I say use as much as your engine can without hydrolocking. I know from experience that all of our Dales that ride in our group hydrolock with any more than 1 full quart. So, knowing that, this is why I share that with people. If you can run more fine, go for it! I don't mind. If your quad won't start all of a sudden after an oil change, then you've put too much in. In our case (remember we have like 20 Dales in our riding group) 1.5 qts is TOO much. That doesn't mean it is for everyone. Steve can run 1.5, and good for him. A starting point should be 1 qt, and then go from there. Keep adding until your quad will not start, then you have found the max:)
2 points:
1) Ever since we have started dyno tuning, we have had no problems wth engines other than the odd flywheel spinning or frozen relay in winter. Simple external problems.
2) Ever since we all started running 1 qt of oil we have not had hydrolock/startup issues.
Knowing those two things, and the amount of Dale in our immediate group, leads me to believe we have found some solutions to our old problems. I run status lights, and don't get overheat warnings ever. It's always a yelling contest when it comes to these two issues, but once again these are proven points within our group.
When you boil it all down, people are going to do whatever they want anyway. I just give advise from findings that we have proven over and over again. I have people PM'ing me that I don't even know and I tel them to try a couple things, and it works every time. People are puking oil and there quads won't start, and I tell them to reduce the oil to 1 qt, and it works. I'm just being honest here. I appreciate everyone's opinion, just like I hope they appreciate mine. I try to weigh each situation individually and give advise based on that particular situation.
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Canniboomer
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
...so,...all 20 Cannondales?, and 1.5 quarts is too much?...that's baloney.
I really think you guys are just fooling yourselves, to think that practice is some clever way to solve any problem. Running a 1/2 quart low, or up to 22 ounces too low on a dry fill is just plain bad advice, and I feel sorry for so many healthy motors that are getting worse in your group now. Our cooling system is superb, and you likely won't overheat if any amount of oil is present --but to say it is fine OK, and to recommend 1 quart because you are not overheating is unthinkable IMO. You can certainly expect accelerated bearing and cam wear, some average higher temps from less heat exchange in the frame, cavitating in the oil pumps, and less oil volume to rinse the motor clean, or to have any chance of controlling the debris that causes hydrolock in the first place..... But man oh man, what can we say?....will you ever reconsider, and oil up those machines?... Anyway, you might consider to keep that highly controversial practice within your group only. Plenty of us can cite 20 more 'dales or ATK's that do fine with the proper oil quantity, and would never even consider skimping on the lifeblood of our machines.
I really think you guys are just fooling yourselves, to think that practice is some clever way to solve any problem. Running a 1/2 quart low, or up to 22 ounces too low on a dry fill is just plain bad advice, and I feel sorry for so many healthy motors that are getting worse in your group now. Our cooling system is superb, and you likely won't overheat if any amount of oil is present --but to say it is fine OK, and to recommend 1 quart because you are not overheating is unthinkable IMO. You can certainly expect accelerated bearing and cam wear, some average higher temps from less heat exchange in the frame, cavitating in the oil pumps, and less oil volume to rinse the motor clean, or to have any chance of controlling the debris that causes hydrolock in the first place..... But man oh man, what can we say?....will you ever reconsider, and oil up those machines?... Anyway, you might consider to keep that highly controversial practice within your group only. Plenty of us can cite 20 more 'dales or ATK's that do fine with the proper oil quantity, and would never even consider skimping on the lifeblood of our machines.
SanfBlaster sorry for your post getting off topic. But I think this needs to be said. I think there is a big miss under standing on what????????s happening when the motor is hydro locked. I don????????t think the oil is getting on top of the piston like many people think per say. I think the case is getting full of oil then when you go to crank it, the piston when on its down stroke pressurizes the case then it forces oil past the rings then in to the combustion chamber. Reason for it not turning over and smoking when it starts. The oil has no where to go if the scavenging pump isn????????t turning to pump oil back into the frame.
I don????????t have this problem anymore but I would sure like someone who does have this problem do a little test and see what????????s really happening. Before you even go to crank it drain oil from the case only see how much comes out, I don????????t see why you couldn????????t just poor that oil back into the frame. Then see if it starts normal. If you have done this test and it still is hydro locking pull the spark plug then crank with plug out. Stand back cause I????????m sure what????????s in there is going to come out like gang busters.
But the reason the case is getting full of oil is because there is a spring loaded valve that is leaking letting oil in to the case. The amount of oil we run should make very little deferent????????s as long as it????????s not so little the motor is staving for oil or things getting to hot for lack of oil again to little oil. We have a dry sump oiling system if we wanted we could hook up a 5gal bucket of oil and it still wouldn????????t hydro lock. Where not the only ones with a dry sump,400ex is and the after market world offers a larger tank with out any issues. Hydro locking has nothing to do with the amount of oil ran.
When my bike was new I had this problem twice shortly after I dropped the motor took apart the spring loaded valve and polished the seat the ball sets in never looked back.
I don????????t have this problem anymore but I would sure like someone who does have this problem do a little test and see what????????s really happening. Before you even go to crank it drain oil from the case only see how much comes out, I don????????t see why you couldn????????t just poor that oil back into the frame. Then see if it starts normal. If you have done this test and it still is hydro locking pull the spark plug then crank with plug out. Stand back cause I????????m sure what????????s in there is going to come out like gang busters.
But the reason the case is getting full of oil is because there is a spring loaded valve that is leaking letting oil in to the case. The amount of oil we run should make very little deferent????????s as long as it????????s not so little the motor is staving for oil or things getting to hot for lack of oil again to little oil. We have a dry sump oiling system if we wanted we could hook up a 5gal bucket of oil and it still wouldn????????t hydro lock. Where not the only ones with a dry sump,400ex is and the after market world offers a larger tank with out any issues. Hydro locking has nothing to do with the amount of oil ran.
When my bike was new I had this problem twice shortly after I dropped the motor took apart the spring loaded valve and polished the seat the ball sets in never looked back.
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Sand_Blaster
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
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thedeatons
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm