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jwheat · #21 Post by **jwheat** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:22 pm

I agree with most of what you're saying Steve, but you are still missing my point. If you take the same bike/ quad and put it on a dyno and set the AFR, then take that bike/quad right next door to another dyno and run everything exactly the same...... then the AFR should be the same. HP and torque may change when you change dynos because of several different factors. You can use an oxygen sensor to monitor AFR, but there is no sensor (that I know of) that measures HP and torque. It is a computed average.

Guys sorry we've highjacked this thread..... Steve and I have kinda gotten off into a dyno discussion. Maybe we should just start a thread to discuss dynos and tuning. My original point is that any of us can take an AFR meter and tune our quads ourselves. You don't have to have a dyno. A dyno is great if you have access to it and your tuning for most HP, but it's not necessary to tune your quad so that it starts right up and runs without any problems.

cannondale27 · #22 Post by **cannondale27** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:35 pm

Very true.I get you.Except only way to tell what AFR to shoot for would be to do a bunch of rollon drags with a buddy who has a quad close enough to keep up.Thats the way we used to do it but now its hard finding anyone to keep up

wistech · #23 Post by **wistech** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:53 pm

What good is an afr reading if you dont know where the engine is making the most hp and torque? Which also leads to the question of how accurate are the afr meters. Any small leak in the exhaust or a sensor getting dirty seems to screw our dyno runs more often than not. Which leads to a lot of downtime where minutes cost money.
I think we are missing the boat focusing totally on a specific afr and not giving the engine what it wants for max power.

Dont water dynoes actually use a pressure /flow sensors to determine hp and torque.

jwheat · #24 Post by **jwheat** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:11 pm

QUOTE (wistech @ Aug 3 2007, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What good is an afr reading if you dont know where the engine is making the most hp and torque? Which also leads to the question of how accurate are the afr meters. Any small leak in the exhaust or a sensor getting dirty seems to screw our dyno runs more often than not. Which leads to a lot of downtime where minutes cost money.
I think we are missing the boat focusing totally on a specific afr and not giving the engine what it wants for max power.

Dont water dynoes actually use a pressure /flow sensors to determine hp and torque.

The majority of owners aren't racers and they just want there motor to run right. Doesn't matter to them if they are running 45HP on a motor capable of 50HP as longs as it runs right and doesn't foul a plug everytime they ride it.

If they have a leak on their exhaust, then their bike needs to be repaired and shouldn't count in this discussion. You can throw in all types of variables in the mix.

In tuning, max power isn't always the desired result.

All dynos use some type of sensors to read the variables (friction, mph, weight,.....) but they still compute HP and torque.

wistech · #25 Post by **wistech** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:45 pm

[quote name='jwheat' date='Aug 3 2007, 11:11 AM' post='176245']
The majority of owners aren't racers and they just want there motor to run right. Doesn't matter to them if they are running 45HP on a motor capable of 50HP as longs as it runs right and doesn't foul a plug everytime they ride it.

In tuning, max power isn't always the desired result.

[quote]
Id be in a lot of trouble if I had that attitude .

jwheat · #26 Post by **jwheat** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:57 pm

QUOTE

Id be in a lot of trouble if I had that attitude .

How so?? If your building motors and have ready access to a dyno, that's great. But... if you live somewhere that you don't have access to a dyno and you just want your quad to run like it should, then a AFR meter does the trick. I'm not doubting your ability to build high HP motors and make them reliable...... I'm just trying to help the average rider that doesn't give a **** if whether he has a 40HP good running stock motor or 55HP Wistech Flamethrower. There again.... in tuning, max HP is not always the desired result.

cannondale27 · #27 Post by **cannondale27** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:55 am

There is no reason you cant have both in tuning.Jwheat you seem to be against dyno hp and torque results because they are computations.Well is it not true that a O2 sensor is a resistor and returns a voltage signal to the ecu?It doesnt send O2 molecules!When the ecu gets the signal it COMPUTES afr off that voltage signal.More or less voltage=more or less O2.Are all computations the same?I bet not.Short of getting a heck of a microscope and literally counting the O2 molecules in a sample there is computations involved.That said I believe I posted the article somewhere comparing AFR meters.Innovate got top for accuracy and ease of use.AFR will get your quad running smooth and safe(sounds like a add for Geritol)If you do enough side by side rollons moving entire afr up and down it will get you very close to what you would get on a dyno seeking hp.It just mystifies me why any of this would be neccesary.If your not concerned about hp then why buy a pipe,port or stroke?Run it stock and use stock maps.I find it hard to believe a good dyno isnt within 3 or 4 hrs of everyone.Even 1 or 2 hp gained on dyno is as much as most pipes.Which cost $300 or more.

jwheat · #28 Post by **jwheat** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:14 am

Steve, I'm not against using a dyno at all and I'm not trying to take anything away from you, John, or Tim. Some of the things you guys have accomplished simplies amazes me. All of you go all out to build great motors. What I am trying to do is make a point that tuning for the average rider can be done without a dyno. Luckily for me, I have access to a dyno about 10 minutes away from me. But .... I would not drive 2-3 hours away and spend several hundred dollars just for the purpose of tuning my quad when I can spend 200.00 or less, stay at home, and tune my quad whenever and as often as I like. Now if I were seriously into racing and competing, like I used to be, then that would be a different story. Nowadays, I just ride at my deer camp or on my property and i occasionally go to a track. I tune my bike with an AFR meter and it runs great. I really feel though that when you tell someone that you can make them a map for there motor and email it to them, then you need to explain that they will still need to tweak or adjust their settings to make it right. Most people that own these quads/ bikes have no idea about fuel injection and how it works. They think that all fuel injection system are like cars and that they self adjust (closed loop). You understand it and you expect everyone to understand what you already know.... the average rider doesn't.