Its time for crank updates

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Canniboomer · #101 Post by **Canniboomer** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:49 pm

That new Z400 bearing should of course generate less heat as you have already shown -- and that should minimize the hotspot that Brad mentioned, and hopefully also mean less oil separation and "solids" accumulation. Great work, and thanks again to all of you "gurus" for the details and great pics.

wistech · #102 Post by **wistech** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:53 pm

There are a couple of things that can help out with the crank crud. One that I have gone overboard on is a huge magnet in the sump. They work great in collecting micro particles and keep it from even getting to the oil system. Any larger chunks that may possibly jam up your scavange pump and strip out the gears will also be snagged. They can easily be accessed through the sump cover and cleaned. They will also extend the life of the oil filter.

I have not seen any evidence that the crud restricts oil flow and my local crank shop has seen it in other motors as well.
You could make the crank bearing lube hole on the outside of the rotational axis as opposed to 90 degrees from it. any heavy stuff would drain out into the bearing and back into the sump.

WolfmanGK · #103 Post by **WolfmanGK** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:52 pm

QUOTE

Originally posted by wistech
I have to agree that the material in the crank pins is acumulating there as an effect of centrfugal forces.

It's interesting you say that. The XR series of Honda motorcycles has a centrifugal oil filter. It works VERY well in sorting out the most minute metal particles and purifying the oil, without the use of an actual pass through filter. I think it is VERY likely that crap in there is a result of centrifugal forces. All the more reason to use a paper oil filter.

wistech · #104 Post by **wistech** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:13 pm

Back in the day the old Honda 185s had no filter except for a oil pump screen . On the end of the crank they to had a centrifical filter. It looks like the same crap that we used to find in it. Those also had the auto clutch running in engine oil so those things filled up fast.

Brad Oakley · #105 Post by **Brad Oakley** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:32 pm

OK, a couple of things need to be pointed out. First off - what is carbon? Well, if you call it graphite, you have a great lubricant. Fine carbon particles float around in all oil that has been heated enough to cause some thermal breakdown. It also wipes off the cylinder into the oil as a byproduct of combustion. As noted, it's what makes used oil black. It really isn't dangerous. It is so soft that it can't hurt anything metal. In the case of the crank - it'll just build up until there isn't any more room for it, and then it'll continue passing through the bearings as it circulates through the system. The finest process separators in the world are centrifugal, not filters. That's why the crank grabs them, yet these particles flow freely through our filters. As Wistech pointed out, it's not the carbon in the passageway, but other nastier things that may have ended up in there that may eventually pass into the bearings when the passage fills up. This is the real reason that the passageway should be cleaned whenever you have the crank out. My main reason for the first post was just to point out that a lot of that evil looking gunk that wistech pulled out of his crank was probably not totally bad, nor was it left over from lax manufacturing processes. However, it would have been interesting if he had passed a magnet over that stuff:( .

cannondale27 · #106 Post by **cannondale27** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:15 am

Brad we did pass a magnet over it.Some of it was metallic but not all of it.
Another point here is if you look at the stock bearing cage it comes very close to sealing off the rod and pin.The Z400 style cage is very open on the bottom it should allow better flow through there hopefully carrying more of the crud away also.
Another point is the pin.Our stock pins only have one hole to the rod bearing.The stock Z400 pin has 2 holes the replacement pins Timbo is making also have 2 holes maybe if there is enough flow through the pin crud wont get enough time to seperate.
****** I will bet that the Falicon rod bearing will be exactly the same style as the Z400.Size will be different but same style since it has been said it is a Toyo bearing and rod is Yamaha spec.I have had a couple Yamaha cranks apart and it is same style of bearing but narrower and smaller diameter.

timbomoose · #107 Post by **timbomoose** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:00 am

The crud that builds up in the pin is from centrifuge not from grinding process as I thought.I pulled a plug out of a pin that was cleaned out and had the same sludge again.Mostly magnetic and was running a cast sleave instead of stock nickasil.I do think putting magnets in the sump could reduce the amount building up as wistech has put in his.Also running a lower rev limiter could reduce some of the centrifuge 10,500 instead of 11,500,but most of the damage is caused from the cage of the stock bearing.The sludge build up is extremely fine and would cause minimal damage unless a big blob came out at once or blocked off the oil hole which isn't likely.I do salute atk for looking into this problem along with other problems and checking into the website and listening to people concerns,complaints,and ideas. It shows what a good company atk is.:clap: Oh ****** you better still be at that group ride.If you don't have a quad by then you can ride one of mine.

wistech · #108 Post by **wistech** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:30 am

Had the moto in the shop for its second oil change and inspection. It now has 13 hours on the z bearing. Filter was clean , magnet was clean.

I installed a different ecu because the one in the quad had no serial # so C27 is going to work on it with the dealer cal.. The temp ecu has been fighting me to get the latest hex code and more powerfull map but I think I have them all nailed down. The original battery gave up the ghost on our last ride and has been replaced by one of those super powerfull 12 series . Now it cranks right up.

wistech · #109 Post by **wistech** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:34 am

Pulled yet another crank apart today. This one was an early cannibal with the billet rod. Much to my shagrin it had serious wear and the bearing surface started peeling away. I would say it had just a few hours of life left in it. The crank pin looks reusable though.

Brad Oakley · #110 Post by **Brad Oakley** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:04 am

Amazing photo, wistech! You need to teach classes on how to keep things in focus when they are shot in a macro mode!

Because I'm curious...That narrow raised band in the center of the rod, how wide is it? Then, how long is a roller bearing? I'd like to know how much of the bearing is riding on the center surface, and how much of each roller is "hanging" out in space at the ends!

Cannondaleriders

Its time for crank updates

Update on my z400 crank mod