I worked this up last summer, as a potential cure for some problems.
But,........ some distinct Pro and Cons should be considered first:
PROS
- Positive shut-off of oil flow -- to prevent any Hydrolock (= oil seepage from the frame to motor, while parked for long periods (some machines only)).
- Large and retained oil passage diameter.
- More hose clearance to the header (about 1/2" more!).
- Much easier bend-out of the oil hose, for easier checking of the oil inlet filter.
CONS
- "I loaned my machine to my brother and forgot to warn him"
- "I was hungover that morning, and rode for ten minutes before realizing the oil valve was still off!"
- "I forgot to turn the valve off last night, and it hydrolocked anyway".
To sum it up for now, this can be a solution for some machines, short of pulling down the motor to correct any hydrolock you may have. And the added header clearance is nice, etc.
But, I have been hesitant to introduce this idea yet,.... or any kit. I had planned to try a low-oil switch or cut-out, that would prevent the machine from starting without any oil flow. Also, I have considered incorporating a mechanical switch, similar to the clutch interlock, to prevent the machine from starting if the valve is in the wrong position. But for a bad hydrolocker that may only behave with a mere 1 quart of oil (please don't!),...something like this should be considered first -- or just pull the motor. I don't have any machines that are having that problem right now, but we keep hearing rumors that this issue is commonplace, or just assumed to become a future problem.
Rear Oil Inlet
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Canniboomer
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Actually, it could easily be spaced over another 1/4" to the left, with just a bit less hose flexibilty. But even as it is, there is more left clearance than right clearance to the chain and roller, to endure a left-side chain slip or break. Maybe there is some chance to destroy it after also taking out the slave cylinder and grinding up the motor case, but I would not say it's a very good chance, and it might be the last thing torn up. But maybe a thin lower deflector could also be added, similar to the right-side master cylinder guard. That's all worth looking at again, just to be sure....good point.
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cannondale27
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Really the best solution to this would be to add a oil tank like the others have done.Reason they used a tank is because every make of bike I ever heard of which has oil in frame had this issue on some bikes once in awhile.XR400,XT's,YZF's all of them.It really isnt a big deal and the more the bike is used the less it happens even in one with a faulty checkball.Just start them up and get them good and warm every week.If there is still a problem even after doing that then a new pump is probably in order.Debris in oil also can cause issues so might be worth it to do a few oil changes and maybe a 2psi shot of air into return might dislodge debris.Obviously Caniboomers setup would work but might break off.Same with a tank.They crack,Lines leak etc.To me best solution is to use what we have and live with the minor inconveniences if any.
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wayneschofield
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We were throwing that idea around a few years back if I remember . I my opinion and what I practice is to run the inlet magnets and rebuild/cleaning the oil pump . Rotate the rubber ball or replace if too deformed.
I would say the price to pay is too high for a manual shutoff. How would it look if you came out with a kit and even one of us toasted the engine due to forgetfullness. I know you mean well but I beg you don't do it.
An automatic external check ball is the only way to go for those who don't rebuild the pump at overhaul. And yes every pump is rebuildable. The stock inlet could be modified for such a system and I have seen work with tiny check ball units for cooling system filters that would do the job. They hold back just enough fluid pressure to keep the coolant from spilling and release when the engine is running. I don't know just seems like too much complication. I also thought of an electric valve that opened with the fuel pump powering up but there again any problem and toasted engine. I would prefer to just fix the problem instead of any risky band aids.
As you can see it the pics some check balls need to be changed anyway. I don't know if something was added to the oil to make that one swell up or it was the wrong material but it was plugged up tight and had to be forced out of the pump. There was no flow around that one.
I would say the price to pay is too high for a manual shutoff. How would it look if you came out with a kit and even one of us toasted the engine due to forgetfullness. I know you mean well but I beg you don't do it.
An automatic external check ball is the only way to go for those who don't rebuild the pump at overhaul. And yes every pump is rebuildable. The stock inlet could be modified for such a system and I have seen work with tiny check ball units for cooling system filters that would do the job. They hold back just enough fluid pressure to keep the coolant from spilling and release when the engine is running. I don't know just seems like too much complication. I also thought of an electric valve that opened with the fuel pump powering up but there again any problem and toasted engine. I would prefer to just fix the problem instead of any risky band aids.
As you can see it the pics some check balls need to be changed anyway. I don't know if something was added to the oil to make that one swell up or it was the wrong material but it was plugged up tight and had to be forced out of the pump. There was no flow around that one.
QUOTE (claas900 @ May 27 2008, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When I took mine apart I polished the seat were the ball sat and haven't had a problem since.
Thats the way to go .
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Canniboomer
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For sure, Wayne. I had looked for a large ID, low crack pressure in-line valve, but could not find anything suitable at the time. My original goal was to provide less or zero spring restriction (for MAYBE more internal oil pressure to the rod sprayer orifice, -- if the stock valve was later removed).
I looked at 12V DC solenoid valves also, but they were quite large and heavy, and the orifice sizes were very small in this plumbing size -- most all are intended for higher pressure hydraulic applications. Anyway, our internal check valve is just what you mention -- a rather soft spring valve, that maintains that delicate balance between sealing and opening. But like C27 mentioned, sticking of that ball seal is not a large problem anyway, and can often be cured with more frequent oil changes. I only brought this up now in R&D, because some guys are actually running these machines at a half-quart low, as a preventive measure! I would cringe at that practice, and would instead break out the plumbing fittings, or open the motor,..... before considering to use less oil.
But,.... as pictured I totally agree with some concerns. I would still be afraid of somebody forgetting to open the valve! Some guys would never forget, but others (like me!) would probably forget! So, I have not made up any kits to peddle off. I just got reminded of this after barking at another member in another thread, for telling people to use drastically less oil to cure hydrolock, and trying to defend that practice. Anyway, this is still a valid project, if the same checkball function can be handled outside of the motor.
So, we should still be searching for a perfect free-flow, low-crack valve like you say Wayne. If you find something over there, like a 10mm throughput checkvalve that may work horizontal with only a quart of weight upstream, let us know. We can always deal with some fitment and protection issues -- that's the easy part, if the components are small enough to begin with..
I looked at 12V DC solenoid valves also, but they were quite large and heavy, and the orifice sizes were very small in this plumbing size -- most all are intended for higher pressure hydraulic applications. Anyway, our internal check valve is just what you mention -- a rather soft spring valve, that maintains that delicate balance between sealing and opening. But like C27 mentioned, sticking of that ball seal is not a large problem anyway, and can often be cured with more frequent oil changes. I only brought this up now in R&D, because some guys are actually running these machines at a half-quart low, as a preventive measure! I would cringe at that practice, and would instead break out the plumbing fittings, or open the motor,..... before considering to use less oil.
But,.... as pictured I totally agree with some concerns. I would still be afraid of somebody forgetting to open the valve! Some guys would never forget, but others (like me!) would probably forget! So, I have not made up any kits to peddle off. I just got reminded of this after barking at another member in another thread, for telling people to use drastically less oil to cure hydrolock, and trying to defend that practice. Anyway, this is still a valid project, if the same checkball function can be handled outside of the motor.
So, we should still be searching for a perfect free-flow, low-crack valve like you say Wayne. If you find something over there, like a 10mm throughput checkvalve that may work horizontal with only a quart of weight upstream, let us know. We can always deal with some fitment and protection issues -- that's the easy part, if the components are small enough to begin with..
I am working on updating a Blaze, wich also hydro-locked. Pulled the pump apart and found metal shavings on the rubber checkball. Cleaned it and rotated it. The checkball is not leaking anymore.
BUT, now it seems that on both engines I am working the oil is still leaking into the engine. I have them assembled, exluding sidecover and oil-filter cover and there is oil leaking into the oil-filter area. BUT is is not comming from the checkball.
I put some oil in the inlet to check for the problem.
It is leaking through the hole in wich the balanceshaft is mounted. From that hole there is another hole leading into the filter area. The oil is comming through that hole, not the rubber checkball.
BUT, now it seems that on both engines I am working the oil is still leaking into the engine. I have them assembled, exluding sidecover and oil-filter cover and there is oil leaking into the oil-filter area. BUT is is not comming from the checkball.
I put some oil in the inlet to check for the problem.
It is leaking through the hole in wich the balanceshaft is mounted. From that hole there is another hole leading into the filter area. The oil is comming through that hole, not the rubber checkball.