Bearing choices

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RickC
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#1 Post by RickC »

I'm in the purchase phase of my 06' ATK/Cannondale xc450 rebuild; there was nothing wrong with this engine, but I wanted to get an idea of what the internals looked like after sitting for over 4 years. The engine has extremely low hours and all internal parts look amazing. I want to do the crank and con rod bearing updates just to be safe as well as any other necessary jobs while the engine is torn apart. Questions:
Will switching from a bushing to a bearing in the clutch hub be a good idea?
What is the best option for crank end bearings?
What is the best option for con rod big end bearings?
Anyone have part numbers for the Total Seal piston rings used on the WWE 97mm (450cc) kit?
Should I replace the sprag clutch while in there?
Any other issues to take care of while I have the engine apart?

Thanks
RickC


kdeal
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#2 Post by kdeal »

Will switching from a bushing to a bearing in the clutch hub be a good idea? Not an issue either way. You could have a different gear ratio than the ones with the needle bearings.
What is the best option for crank end bearings? If your motor is in good shape DO NOT CHANGE THEM. OEM Timken bearings are best and are getting scarce.
What is the best option for con rod big end bearings? Factory Suzuki, Kawasaki or Artic Cat Z400 bearing. When looking up there will be two different bearings, one has a coating one doesn't. Not much difference but price.
Anyone have part numbers for the Total Seal piston rings used on the WWE 97mm (450cc) kit? The piston kit you are referring to is not of good quality to last the long haul, I would use another piston kit.
Should I replace the sprag clutch while in there? I like to as an insurance policy only. If it goes bad, you are tearing it all down again.....
Any other issues to take care of while I have the engine apart? Aluminum valve cover, billet water pump cover, Black Widow steel shim side cover and oil pick-up cover gaskets, change the junk drain plugs for steel or billet, have the head looked at for the dreaded sticking exhaust bucket and the valve springs checked for correct tension, (optional port job and DLC valve buckets for ultra reliability).

RickC
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#3 Post by RickC »

QUOTE (kdeal @ Mar 6 2014, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Will switching from a bushing to a bearing in the clutch hub be a good idea? Not an issue either way. You could have a different gear ratio than the ones with the needle bearings.
What is the best option for crank end bearings? If your motor is in good shape DO NOT CHANGE THEM. OEM Timken bearings are best and are getting scarce.
What is the best option for con rod big end bearings? Factory Suzuki, Kawasaki or Artic Cat Z400 bearing. When looking up there will be two different bearings, one has a coating one doesn't. Not much difference but price.
Anyone have part numbers for the Total Seal piston rings used on the WWE 97mm (450cc) kit? The piston kit you are referring to is not of good quality to last the long haul, I would use another piston kit.
Should I replace the sprag clutch while in there? I like to as an insurance policy only. If it goes bad, you are tearing it all down again.....
Any other issues to take care of while I have the engine apart? Aluminum valve cover, billet water pump cover, Black Widow steel shim side cover and oil pick-up cover gaskets, change the junk drain plugs for steel or billet, have the head looked at for the dreaded sticking exhaust bucket and the valve springs checked for correct tension, (optional port job and DLC valve buckets for ultra reliability).

I have read so many conflicting accounts about using this bearing or that bearing for the crank that I decided to stick with the stock setup. As you mentioned above, I feel the stock ones are good enough and in my case, in great condition; there was absolutely no crank end play before I tore it apart. As for the Z400 bearing, yes, I will be using it and getting the crank assy checked for balance as well. We are talking about a (DR/LT)Z400 Suzuki engine-family, right? Never seen Kawi or Artic Cat mention anywhere before... On the Suzuki fiche, I noticed the bearing p/n has been superceeded at least once; is this the coated vs non-coated difference you mentioned?
I spoke to Dave (caniboomer) today about my concerns and he informed me that I have a 'unicorn' engine with the better crank assembly and factory updates. He also strongly suggested the sprag clutch be replaced (I knew it would be stupid not to, but I'm new to this engine...) while in there, as well as some other minor issues to address before buttoning it up. On the flip side, Total Seal refused to acknowledge the Cannondale/ATK connection to their product, but I have read several articles that specifically mention TS as the ring provider! I'll be measuring ring end gap this weekend and deciding wether to reuse the current ring setup. Either way, I don't feel replacing the piston/cylinder is the best choice at this point--they're just too good and round!

To top it off, I'm thinking about a slight port job while the head's off (any advice?) and yep, I got the aluminum valve cover and impeller already installed.
As for your last tip, you mention a sticking exhaust bucket; could this have been the cause of my 90psi compression loss from one day to the next? if it hadn't been for that, I'd be riding the bike right now...
How common was/is this and what exactly caused it?

I'm looking forward to rounding up all my parts next week and starting the reassembly process, but for now I'm content with the great advice I've been getting!
Thanks!

RickC

cdsracer
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#4 Post by cdsracer »

I agree with Ken and would swap the WWE piston for something better...I have had two crack and fail.

RickC
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#5 Post by RickC »

QUOTE (cdsracer @ Mar 7 2014, 03:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with Ken and would swap the WWE piston for something better...I have had two crack and fail.


Well, I can't say (yet) cost is an issue, but I really need more convincing before I throw a larger bill at this engine. What choices do I have? I don't want to go back to stock 423cc; I'm big (6'4"/265) and need all the torque I can get! Besides, I'm sure there will be more crap I need to buy for it...

RickC

exotic rider
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#6 Post by exotic rider »

QUOTE (RickC @ Mar 7 2014, 03:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, I can't say (yet) cost is an issue, but I really need more convincing before I throw a larger bill at this engine. What choices do I have? I don't want to go back to stock 423cc; I'm big (6'4"/265) and need all the torque I can get! Besides, I'm sure there will be more crap I need to buy for it...
Most guys on here will tell ya a good port job on a 432cc engine will put you on a 50hp ride,I have a 432 and im 6;4 225- I ride mostly fast paced woods and never need more power,I did minor deburing and polishing,these bikes make good power, the 432 kit is like 120$ -cheap.
RickC


cdsracer
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#7 Post by cdsracer »

Yes, a stock ASSO 432cc piston is cheap, and good quality. A port job produces more power per dollar than pretty much any other mod I believe...really wakes them up.

RickC
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#8 Post by RickC »

QUOTE (cdsracer @ Mar 7 2014, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, a stock ASSO 432cc piston is cheap, and good quality. A port job produces more power per dollar than pretty much any other mod I believe...really wakes them up.


I'll be looking into ASSO next week. I got a call back from Wiseco about a batch of 432 and 450 pistons they produced at one time for another company in PA, but no idea if of them left. I'll call them on Monday...
JE Pistons will call me back next week if they have any leads, but besides that, it's either the ASSO or ?

cdsracer
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#9 Post by cdsracer »

You should be able to get a good ASSO from Canniboomer or Blackwidow. The Wiseco and JE pistons for the dales are no better than the WWE in my experience. I think others on this forum would agree the best pistons for these are either ASSO or CP. Anything else is a waste of time, money and more parts.

MX Quad Dad
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm

#10 Post by MX Quad Dad »

sounds as if you have allready done some reading here. good way to start to get to know these bikes/quads. guys here will help also. I just wanted to add/recomend in cased you missed them. the update and tips section (read the service manual erros and corrections) and the frequently asked questions section.

Just one thing I noticed and nobody seemed to comment on was it looks like you are looking for 120 pounds compression I am not sure since I never did a compression check on my dales but from what I read here I don't think you will see that much cranking. I may be wrong and sorry if I am just hoping someone will chime in and let you know what to expect if you check it after the rebuild.

WARNING: these things are addictive
I am one of the very very lucky (unlucky?) person who bought Two new quads and had better luck with them than any of the other quads (only the Honda 90 comes close to repairs in the first couple years) i have owned. and I now own four. ther are people here that own more and have had some of the worst luck with the first ones

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