Shell Rottella T oil?
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ScramblerXLE
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marshall100
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MX Quad Dad
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I know I have said itt on here before but, you should check your oil every time you buy it. many professional engine builders have suffered from this change alone. and I'm guessing that there were no notices when the levels of this additive was lowered
A couple of quotes for that link:
"From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!"
" We do not manufacture modern automotive engine oils because we do not stock the many additives that make up something like 20% of the total oil by volume. Even though Zinc may not be in many engine oils now other addtives such as detergent dispersants, anti-oxidation additives, viscosity builders, etc are still required. Therefore, the Redline oils may be best because it sounds like they blend their own oils and put in additives that satisfy older engine requirements. It is best to deal with a smaller blender who can tell you unequivocally what is in his oils. I would be leary of the diesel rated oils because these are manufactured by major oil blenders who have a bad habit of changing formulations willy nilly without prior notice. Diesel engine oil specifications are in a state of turmoil just like gasoline engine oils and zinc additives could easily disappear from these oils too. In fact railroad diesel engine oils have always been zinc free due to conflicts with bearing materials."
And I just went to the redline site and they do now sell a SM api rated oil and I believe all their street rated oil is SM.
All of what I've read lately seems to say that after break-in this additive is not required SO THEY SAY so if your engine was already broke-in or your oil had the higher levels of zddp at that time you may not notice a problem until the next rebuild.
if your not running a cat. converter there seems to be no harm in running the higher zddp oils and on a side note I have run diesel rated motor oil in all of my past 4 vehicals (with converters) and with many miles on each of them only one has/is flashing an emission code which has over 250k on it. I know this doesn't mean I could pass emission test or that my converters are doing there jobs but my vehicals are running good and get pretty good milage
A couple of quotes for that link:
"From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!"
" We do not manufacture modern automotive engine oils because we do not stock the many additives that make up something like 20% of the total oil by volume. Even though Zinc may not be in many engine oils now other addtives such as detergent dispersants, anti-oxidation additives, viscosity builders, etc are still required. Therefore, the Redline oils may be best because it sounds like they blend their own oils and put in additives that satisfy older engine requirements. It is best to deal with a smaller blender who can tell you unequivocally what is in his oils. I would be leary of the diesel rated oils because these are manufactured by major oil blenders who have a bad habit of changing formulations willy nilly without prior notice. Diesel engine oil specifications are in a state of turmoil just like gasoline engine oils and zinc additives could easily disappear from these oils too. In fact railroad diesel engine oils have always been zinc free due to conflicts with bearing materials."
And I just went to the redline site and they do now sell a SM api rated oil and I believe all their street rated oil is SM.
All of what I've read lately seems to say that after break-in this additive is not required SO THEY SAY so if your engine was already broke-in or your oil had the higher levels of zddp at that time you may not notice a problem until the next rebuild.
if your not running a cat. converter there seems to be no harm in running the higher zddp oils and on a side note I have run diesel rated motor oil in all of my past 4 vehicals (with converters) and with many miles on each of them only one has/is flashing an emission code which has over 250k on it. I know this doesn't mean I could pass emission test or that my converters are doing there jobs but my vehicals are running good and get pretty good milage
This looks like the law of unintended consequences where the minor problem being addressed has leads to many more major problems.
Rotella synthetic 5w40 at about $5 a quart is the most easily obtainable and hands down the best value for your money when it comes to a very good acceptable oil for our machines. Sure you can spend more and maybe you will get a better oil to some degree but as long as we are changing it when we should we are just ultimatly throwing away a more expensive oil that probably has 90% of its additives and life left.
I run it in both sides now because I hated tearing into an engine that had smurf blood in it and I cant imagine that stuff is very easy to pump when it is cold but mostly because it has gotten expensive and hard to get. I have noticed less debris in my screen since changing over.
I agree that what mark is doing is probably be fine for his machine but if in the end it costs more than $5 a quart it is not worth it to me to end up with a semi-synthetic.
Rotella synthetic 5w40 at about $5 a quart is the most easily obtainable and hands down the best value for your money when it comes to a very good acceptable oil for our machines. Sure you can spend more and maybe you will get a better oil to some degree but as long as we are changing it when we should we are just ultimatly throwing away a more expensive oil that probably has 90% of its additives and life left.
I run it in both sides now because I hated tearing into an engine that had smurf blood in it and I cant imagine that stuff is very easy to pump when it is cold but mostly because it has gotten expensive and hard to get. I have noticed less debris in my screen since changing over.
I agree that what mark is doing is probably be fine for his machine but if in the end it costs more than $5 a quart it is not worth it to me to end up with a semi-synthetic.
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MX Quad Dad
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just trying to see how long it takes to fry my brain (what little I seem to have) without the use of drugs I just keep digging into this Zinc topic.
First I was thinking the oil companies were trying to eliminate an expensive additive but, as I read it seems the ZDDP is an inexpensive additive so then I was thinking EPA had a thought that this additive was a pollutant.
As I figured "follow the bucks" and you might find the culprit.
the cost of the catalytic converter was going up (whole other topic) and car companies switched what they use to make them. these new cats seem to have been introduced in 2004 and it was latter determined (By who????) that the ZDDP additive was poisoning (Why they use the word poisoning????????) the new cats. so it seems somebody determined that this additive was not needed, and they came up with GF-4 specification. so it would seem to me that the automaker could revoke your cat warranty if you do not use oil that meets the GF-4 specification.
API rating "SM" I had a chart that showed these but can't find it but, the "SM" i believe is the newest and is specified that it is required for newer vehicles. they say that all the newer ratings are backwards compatible. so I ask why do they litter up the api symbol with all the old ratings? and How can a SM oil meet the same requirements as a SG if the SG has ZDDP and the SM doesn't. I'm beginning to believe the API rating are bogus and just another organization making money and doing nothing which is costing us money for nothing.
Now back to the Rottella. I was looking at a jug today and I did find the "SM" API rating on the jug which is why I started digging again. and although I can not find the "meets the GF-4 specification" on the jug it did have the SM and the in pages i dug thru I did find a claim that there is a tie between the GF-4 and the SM. in other words it has to meet the GF-4 specification to carry the SM rating and to top that off I found it written that "the EPA mandated that ZDDP be removed from all conventional and synthetic oils produced domestically that sought to meet the GF-4 specification". So are these two the same?????? I don't know YET!!!!!!
Good news, for me at least. As I have stated on this site I do use amsoil. I use their series 3000 5w30 which is a diesel rated oil, in all my vehicles except my dales which get the 10w40 motorcycle oil. BUT I haven't made a purchase since early2011 and am not sure how old the jugs are that I am referring to. There is no GF-4 or SM on the label. That may be different today. Until recently my newest vehicle was a 2005 and I haven't had a converter failure or at least one that would make my SES light come on
I have many web pages open on my desktop as I typed this and on scrolling thru them to remember what I read I found another link in Google which states there was a new API rating for 2011 and older vehicles "SN" and I'm not going there.................................................................today
First I was thinking the oil companies were trying to eliminate an expensive additive but, as I read it seems the ZDDP is an inexpensive additive so then I was thinking EPA had a thought that this additive was a pollutant.
As I figured "follow the bucks" and you might find the culprit.
the cost of the catalytic converter was going up (whole other topic) and car companies switched what they use to make them. these new cats seem to have been introduced in 2004 and it was latter determined (By who????) that the ZDDP additive was poisoning (Why they use the word poisoning????????) the new cats. so it seems somebody determined that this additive was not needed, and they came up with GF-4 specification. so it would seem to me that the automaker could revoke your cat warranty if you do not use oil that meets the GF-4 specification.
API rating "SM" I had a chart that showed these but can't find it but, the "SM" i believe is the newest and is specified that it is required for newer vehicles. they say that all the newer ratings are backwards compatible. so I ask why do they litter up the api symbol with all the old ratings? and How can a SM oil meet the same requirements as a SG if the SG has ZDDP and the SM doesn't. I'm beginning to believe the API rating are bogus and just another organization making money and doing nothing which is costing us money for nothing.
Now back to the Rottella. I was looking at a jug today and I did find the "SM" API rating on the jug which is why I started digging again. and although I can not find the "meets the GF-4 specification" on the jug it did have the SM and the in pages i dug thru I did find a claim that there is a tie between the GF-4 and the SM. in other words it has to meet the GF-4 specification to carry the SM rating and to top that off I found it written that "the EPA mandated that ZDDP be removed from all conventional and synthetic oils produced domestically that sought to meet the GF-4 specification". So are these two the same?????? I don't know YET!!!!!!
Good news, for me at least. As I have stated on this site I do use amsoil. I use their series 3000 5w30 which is a diesel rated oil, in all my vehicles except my dales which get the 10w40 motorcycle oil. BUT I haven't made a purchase since early2011 and am not sure how old the jugs are that I am referring to. There is no GF-4 or SM on the label. That may be different today. Until recently my newest vehicle was a 2005 and I haven't had a converter failure or at least one that would make my SES light come on
I have many web pages open on my desktop as I typed this and on scrolling thru them to remember what I read I found another link in Google which states there was a new API rating for 2011 and older vehicles "SN" and I'm not going there.................................................................today
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MX Quad Dad
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well, i don't know how reliable wikipedia info is, but I found a little more there.
The GF-4 is a ILSAC standard. acording to what wiki said ILSAC works with API. but, ILSAC also includes a fuel economy test. one thing that sounded odd, was that the GF-5 took effect in Oct. 2010 and the industry has one year to convert, and the really odd is that after Sept. of 2011 they will no longer offer licensing for GF-4. I see older ratings on oil jugs all the time, but is that because of their backwards compatible theroy or are they trying to fix this problem without admitting to it?
The GF-4 is a ILSAC standard. acording to what wiki said ILSAC works with API. but, ILSAC also includes a fuel economy test. one thing that sounded odd, was that the GF-5 took effect in Oct. 2010 and the industry has one year to convert, and the really odd is that after Sept. of 2011 they will no longer offer licensing for GF-4. I see older ratings on oil jugs all the time, but is that because of their backwards compatible theroy or are they trying to fix this problem without admitting to it?
Thanks for your time on it...-
MX Quad Dad
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
I really need to be better at keeping track of what I find and I do try not to rely on info from web pages that have advertising of products they are recommending.
I do not claim to be any kind of expert on this.
Things I know,
Always check the API or ILSAC ratings every time you buy. They can (will) change without anything to notify you
Salesperson will tell you anything to get you to buy
never met a mechanic that checked API rating on every shipment
cam companies were taken by surprise on this
some people speak with such authority that is hard not to believe them
Things I think I know or am leaning towards believing them
diesels are having to meet tougher EPA regulations therefore the oils used in them will most likely change
GF-4 oil meets the epa requirement for zinc (ZDDP) and anything that meets GF-4 meets API SM
This additive seems to be more important at break-in
our crank bearings may need this additive more than a babbit bearing engine
efficantcy and warranty on newer catalytic converters is the only thing this additive will effect
Something I just don't understand
How I can show any faith in API or ILSAC, when they have proven that they are incompetent morons. I say this because it is written many times that the new oil is backwards compatible. I would figure they either didn't test with an older engine or they used one that was broke-in with the correct oil. That additive was in there for a reason, wasn't it? I have not found anything that says it was replaced with, so they just left it out?
ponder this
If you bought a new car, say, in 2009, and say within 1 year and 20,000 miles the converter goes bad. You take it to the dealer and they say. You used the wrong oil. How many people will know they used API SM rated oil. Dealer will say no warranty and the customer will pay even if the oil he used was SM.
One thing I learned back in 2000 when I bought a new truck and told the dealer I was planning to use Amsoil and extend my oil changes. He told me it would void my warranty. A call to Amsoil and they sent him a letter that they cannot void a warranty unless they can prove the oil failed. So, is the burden of proof still on the dealer in the SM case?
I do not claim to be any kind of expert on this.
Things I know,
Always check the API or ILSAC ratings every time you buy. They can (will) change without anything to notify you
Salesperson will tell you anything to get you to buy
never met a mechanic that checked API rating on every shipment
cam companies were taken by surprise on this
some people speak with such authority that is hard not to believe them
Things I think I know or am leaning towards believing them
diesels are having to meet tougher EPA regulations therefore the oils used in them will most likely change
GF-4 oil meets the epa requirement for zinc (ZDDP) and anything that meets GF-4 meets API SM
This additive seems to be more important at break-in
our crank bearings may need this additive more than a babbit bearing engine
efficantcy and warranty on newer catalytic converters is the only thing this additive will effect
Something I just don't understand
How I can show any faith in API or ILSAC, when they have proven that they are incompetent morons. I say this because it is written many times that the new oil is backwards compatible. I would figure they either didn't test with an older engine or they used one that was broke-in with the correct oil. That additive was in there for a reason, wasn't it? I have not found anything that says it was replaced with, so they just left it out?
ponder this
If you bought a new car, say, in 2009, and say within 1 year and 20,000 miles the converter goes bad. You take it to the dealer and they say. You used the wrong oil. How many people will know they used API SM rated oil. Dealer will say no warranty and the customer will pay even if the oil he used was SM.
One thing I learned back in 2000 when I bought a new truck and told the dealer I was planning to use Amsoil and extend my oil changes. He told me it would void my warranty. A call to Amsoil and they sent him a letter that they cannot void a warranty unless they can prove the oil failed. So, is the burden of proof still on the dealer in the SM case?
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MX Quad Dad
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Well, I just got my new shipment of amsoil series 3000 5w30 deisel engine oil. and there is no GF-4 or SM on the label but to be honest there is no API starburst on it either just a statment of,
"recommended for diesel engines and, were appropriate, gasoline engines requiring any of the following specifications. SAE 5W30 API CI-4+, CF,SL"
then a list of other manufacturers oils (I would think these are more of a part number than a specification) like Cat, Cummins, MACK and Volvo to name a few.
I know it is very expensive to put that starburst API logo on a bottle but I used AMOCO Ultimate when it first came out which didn't have that Logo, I drove this truck over 250G and it never used oil or needed and major repair
"recommended for diesel engines and, were appropriate, gasoline engines requiring any of the following specifications. SAE 5W30 API CI-4+, CF,SL"
then a list of other manufacturers oils (I would think these are more of a part number than a specification) like Cat, Cummins, MACK and Volvo to name a few.
I know it is very expensive to put that starburst API logo on a bottle but I used AMOCO Ultimate when it first came out which didn't have that Logo, I drove this truck over 250G and it never used oil or needed and major repair