metal in oil pump again

Message

Happyboy · #21 Post by **Happyboy** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:08 pm

I would remove the entire line if i were you. That way you can be 100% sure there is nothing in there.

wistech · #22 Post by **wistech** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:11 pm

Sounds like your cam bearing failed . Then while it was flopping around the decomp smacked the head and shattered after the fact. You need to remove the piston pin access cover and get the tiny little ball bearing out of there along with all the rest of the chewed up cage material. The head also needs to be completely dissasembled and all the tiny pieces under the valve spring will need to be removed. No you cannot get them out with air. i dont recomend the metal oil pump gears. They dont last as long as the plastic ones and do much more damage when they break. If you are thinking the metal gears will have the strength to power the pumps to chew up metal going through them then thats a band aid reasoning. Everything should be done during the build to prevent the metal from getting into the motor first. Inspecting bearing clearances on the cams is very important to prevent bearing failure.

haydug · #23 Post by **haydug** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:02 pm

QUOTE (wistech @ Feb 19 2007, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like your cam bearing failed . Then while it was flopping around the decomp smacked the head and shattered after the fact. You need to remove the piston pin access cover and get the tiny little ball bearing out of there along with all the rest of the chewed up cage material. The head also needs to be completely dissasembled and all the tiny pieces under the valve spring will need to be removed. No you cannot get them out with air. i dont recomend the metal oil pump gears. They dont last as long as the plastic ones and do much more damage when they break. If you are thinking the metal gears will have the strength to power the pumps to chew up metal going through them then thats a band aid reasoning. Everything should be done during the build to prevent the metal from getting into the motor first. Inspecting bearing clearances on the cams is very important to prevent bearing failure.

I'm just not sure that I buy this: However, if you had a couple of good looking girls to back up this theory, you might pursuade me!

wistech · #24 Post by **wistech** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:24 pm

Maybe I should explain it this way.

harleypitbull1 · #25 Post by **harleypitbull1** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:36 pm

Wistech, the bearing did come apart but all the pieces were still there. I sent all of it to Tim to be checked. The cam had a tiny spot on it so I replaced the cam the bearing and one of your redone decomps. Tim told me the only metal that should be there was from the decomp. I guess its possible there was still a tiny piece lodged in the line. Who knows, I am gonna tear it down and fix it one more time. There is a positive to this. First engine pull took about 4 hours, lol, now I can do it around 1. Maybe I can get it all this time. Gonna try to get it out tomorrow night. As far as pulling the head and piston and all that, I am lost. This is a guy who does bodywork for a living, trying to work on a motor, first motor ever and its a cannondale, brave guy.

wistech · #26 Post by **wistech** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:25 am

I dont know. You say the bolt on the cam gear itself came out? How does a decomp cause that? How does the did the cam bearing fail and have the balls come out of it? If it did where are the dozens of tiny pieces of cage material that hold all the balls together go and the tiny little rivets? Im saying if you had that much happen I would pull the complete top end down for a full inspection. Why wish and hope you got it all. Ive seen cam bearings go . After washing out the head there was a ton of little chunks under the valve buckets and in the springs. Just waiting to let it go and wipe out the engine again. Also when the decomp lets go it can force the cam to lift the valve higher and cause piston contact. The head should be pulled anyway to inspect for that as well as cam bearing clearance. When the engine runs with a bad cam bearing it trashes the roller bearing as well as the ball bearing plus the camshaft race that the roller rides on.

These are just my observations and some fully detailed pics would explain the situation better. But in the end its your engine.

haydug · #27 Post by **haydug** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:44 am

QUOTE (wistech @ Feb 19 2007, 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe I should explain it this way.

AHHH: makes sense now!

harleypitbull1 · #28 Post by **harleypitbull1** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:00 am

Wistech, I really appreciate all the help I get on here. It is my engine and I want it done right. Is pulling the head something that is not that difficult to do. We did a leak down test to see if any valves were bent and they were not. All of the balls in the cam bearing were still there, they did not come out. Tim has seen it, I know you 2 are friends, maybe you could contact him and ask him if the head needs to come off. I want it fixed and I am tired of pulling the motor lol. I have had no problems until this happened. The bolt did not back all the way out of the cam but it was loose. There was some very minor scarring on the valvecover. I just went by what Tim told me to do, but he works on so many of these things, he could have forgot to tell me that, but he just told me to make sure I had all the old pieces of the decomp. I thought I did the first time and was positive I did this time, but I guess I was wrong.

cannondale27 · #29 Post by **cannondale27** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:13 am

Didnt the pins shear also on cam gear?So cambearing,decomp and gearbolt all went at same time?I would definitly remove the head and 90%sure if mine I would change the valves even if they didnt obviously make contact with piston.Question:Did you check valve clearance?Did it change at all from when they were first checked?If any change at all put new valves in also.They are cheap insurance.To get the tubes out that feed and return to head you will have to remove access cover or one on head.Either way Timing chain will be off so it is only 6 bolts to remove head.Gaskets can be reused if you pressure test after.

Here is a pic of a piston valves were hitting.Valves still held water and would probably passed a leakdown test.They are tough and will bend horrendously and still come back but once bent they are weak and could fail at any time.Notice how hard they hit.Only way to spot this is to remove head.Or Borescope.

harleypitbull1 · #30 Post by **harleypitbull1** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:25 am

I did not check valve clearance. Once again I do body work for a living, so , How do I check it? I want to go through this thing and have it right. Also what do I need to do to change the valves? I called Tim today and ordered more gears and the oil pump parts, maybe I should get some valves also. I thought I would never get the cam back in and get it back in time but I did, so I am sure I can get the head and everything off too. How do I pressure test it after I put it back on? and yes c27, the pins did shear also.