Question for the electrical Gurus???

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kdeal · #11 Post by **kdeal** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:30 pm

QUOTE (rayspeed @ Jul 17 2007, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am curious about this too...
There is a one way sprag clutch kind of thing at the end of the ballance shaft... I guess that keeps the starter from being driven by the engine.
There is also a clutch kind of thing that is easy to get to behind that breather plate in front of and a little above the plastic flywheel cover. I have a theory on what that is doing but it may be wrong.
Which one creates which symptom when they go bad? As it happens I think the hard one to get to has the problem more often from not getting cleaned out from a crank failure.

Maybe somebody should sticky a good explanation of what is doing what and the failure mode...

Ray

Ray,

The starter clutch pack is behind a small cover on the flywheel side of the motor that is easily accessed via 3 bolts and no other tools. The "sprag" on the end of the crank balance shaft you are refering to is the starter one way bearing(#12 in the bottom picture). There have not been too many reports of bad clutch packs unless someone took one apart & reassemled it incorrectly. The one way bearing does have a history but usually from wear and tear or in a high compression motor. I do know that DMAC did have a problem with the clutch pack previously and he fixed it. My thoughts towards that matter is that the clutchs may have slipped enough to cause damage that will not let them do their job now that it is properly installed.

[attachment=4158:Starter_Clutch.jpg]

[attachment=4159:Starter_One_Way.jpg]

jesshamner · #12 Post by **jesshamner** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:45 pm

I still like the hit it with a hammer idea.

DMAC10 · #13 Post by **DMAC10** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:57 pm

QUOTE (kdeal @ Jul 17 2007, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The quick short C27 is talking about is similar to a problem the X440s motorcycles & any of the bikes/quads with those stupid paddle switches. The stop switch would intermittently ground to shut the bike off at the most inopertune times. Like while going up the face of a jump (can you say nose dive). But, I hate to be a kill joy, I think you may have 2 problems. The short is a direct short to ground, the other I mentioned will never casue a fuse to blow. If you have a D&M try reflashing the hex code and map to just do a sort of flush of the ECU.

On the starter problem, I think Pete hit the nail on the head. The starter one-way bearing is major surgery as it is behind the crank cartridge plate. Meaning the motor will have to come out and a lot of work. Don't forget that you had the starter clutch installed correctly a while back, maybe the plates are slipping. I would try a different starter clutch pack first (easy swap, just 3 bolts), before pulling the motor. By all means wait until winter to do anything major. I can bring a spare starter and starter clutch with me to the group ride to just be safe. If not we can get Jess to push start you with help from the triplets! ALso, double check the idle speed to make sure your idle is high enough.

Thanks KillJoy I mean kdeal.

Well I definantly blew a fuse. Actually both wires to the stop switch were pinched, and had bare wiring showing.

So maybe my original trouble was the ground to shut the quad off. Then the last one was both wires together which caused the fuse to go. . We will see when I recheck everything.

Thanks Ken for the info and the offer, ( I hope I don't have to take you up on it. I have another starter, just not the pack.

Now this strange starter trouble, I had no starter trouble until the quad sit for about 5 months with no activity. I'll pull the cover off and see what it looks like in there. I'll make sure everything is tight, something may have vibrated lose. ( Even though a Cannondale doesn't have much vibration)

Just my luck I would have some silly troubles, since I have been training my butt off for the last 5 months. I lost 18 lbs, which I didn't realize that I needed to lose and this was 2" in the waist and I have put 9 lbs of that back on without any increase in waist size. Now I can hold onto the handlebars, as soon as the blisters all heal.LOL

cannondale27 · #14 Post by **cannondale27** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:38 am

QUOTE (kdeal @ Jul 17 2007, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The quick short C27 is talking about is similar to a problem the X440s motorcycles & any of the bikes/quads with those stupid paddle switches. The stop switch would intermittently ground to shut the bike off at the most inopertune times. Like while going up the face of a jump (can you say nose dive). But, I hate to be a kill joy, I think you may have 2 problems. The short is a direct short to ground, the other I mentioned will never casue a fuse to blow. If you have a D&M try reflashing the hex code and map to just do a sort of flush of the ECU.

No.A short is when a + contacts ground.If very fast and intermittent it will not ALWAYS pop the fuse.The Stop switch on bikes was a open condition since our stop switces are normally closed.Problem with them was they were losing contact with vibrations.Either way I hope your good.Only one real way to find out.

Your starter problem maybe the cogs in starter clutch bearing got corroded or a little gummed up from sitting so long.Gotta hope so.

svahle · #15 Post by **svahle** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:58 pm

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I also have an infrequent but annoying occurence of my Dale unexpectedly dying. I too expect this is the paddle style run/stop switch. I have a Moto with the Pingle kill switch. Do I really need a run stop switch? Can I just connect the two wires going to the run/stop switch so that the cicuit is always closed and then just use the Pingle to shut off the quad? What about just using the key to kill it? If I read the above posts correctly, the run/stop switch creates a closed circuit in the run position and an open circuit in the stop position. Is this right? If so, won't my solution above work? Thanks in advance for the info. Again, sorry for the quasi hijack of this thread but it seemed relevant.

cannondale27 · #16 Post by **cannondale27** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:51 pm

Yes you are correct.

Canniboomer · #17 Post by **Canniboomer** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:40 am

The Moto Pingel had a male and female lead from the factory. They installed it by Adding to the already connected stop switch, by unplugging one lead and just adding the Pingel into the same single-pole loop. Combined with the key switch, you have 3 ways to shut it off! That's a bit of overkill, so to speak. Yep, if you nix that red paddle switch, the mystery stalling will likely stop.

DMAC10 · #18 Post by **DMAC10** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:30 pm

Dang I've been hijacked, NO Problem I don't have anything worth taking. No problem for asking questions on any of my threads Svahle, It always helps to get multiple questions going, EDUCATION of an old mind.

Update on my starter troubles. Thanks to all the info and some additional info from kdeal. My mystery has been solved.

The clutch pack spring washers had slipped out of their grove, so the whole assy was loose. I disasembled it last night, realigned everything, pressed the pack back together. Put it back int he quad.

TaDa she fired right up. But I'm thinking that I had better get me aspre, because there was a lot of wear on the starter clucth pack assy.

So anyone have an extra they want to get rid of. I'll post in the wanted section.

Electrical now.

So if I remove my red on / off switch and just tie the wires together, then I can eliminate this trouble for the future??? If this is so I like this countermeasure.

Thanks everyone for the help. I'm back in business. Now if I could just get the old body back together this easy.LOL

jesshamner · #19 Post by **jesshamner** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:38 pm

Let's get together and ride to get us both back into shape.

DMAC10 · #20 Post by **DMAC10** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:31 pm

Sounds like a plan.

But your half my age you should always be in shape

Now the question is WHERE???, WHEN???

There are 2 new rding areas about 45 minutes from my house that opened last year.

1 is just trails, the other is called the playground, its kinda like a mx track through thw woods. They says its bull dozer wide and a little over 1 mile long. If you want to get cocky they have a place set up to do tricks off of big jumps, and a pee wee track. I want to start there. I think I could take the mini, if I'm not faster I'll just runn them off the track.LOL