Air box mod
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cdalemx301
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
Afterposting i think i may have figured it out somebody let me know if im way off on this.....The airbox builds a vaccuum to suck air in correct? well when u turn a vaccuum cleaner on it sucks harder the closer u get to the end of it correct? so could this be working the same way? the closer u get to the point making the vaccuum the more pressure u have suck on the air filter?
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Canniboomer
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
I think our stock airbox is just an elaborate means of moving air from the "pre-determined" filter location around the steering stem and into the throttle funnel.
The only thing I miss about the stock airbox is the cool molded "C" logo on the top!
but you can't even see that until you pull the plastic!... guess I'll hang mine on the wall for fond memories of my gooey ECU tray!!
The only thing I miss about the stock airbox is the cool molded "C" logo on the top!
but you can't even see that until you pull the plastic!... guess I'll hang mine on the wall for fond memories of my gooey ECU tray!!
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cdalerider75
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
OK guys I have done some research on the web on more information about this whole AIR filter mod deal....
First you can find the information for the K&N air filter
here...
http://www.knfilterchargers.com/search/pro...px?Prod=CD-4402
CD-4402 Product Specifications
Product Style: Unique Air Filters
Filter Re-Oiling Amount: 0.83 oz (25 ml)
Weight: 0.8 lb (0.4 kg)
Product Box Length: 6.44 in (163 mm)
Product Box Width: 6.38 in (162 mm)
Product Box Height: 7.13 in (181 mm)
Now here was some good web sites that I found...
http://www.off-road.com/atv/projects/rapto...2001/ehsracing/
http://www.off-road.com/atv/projects/rapto...es/P0002492.jpg
http://www.knpowersports.com/power_kits.htm
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/articles/air_filter.asp
In the above article it states the following,
Performance air filters has always been a starting point for those who want to take the first step into car tuning. This is because performance air filters are easy to apply and are not so expensive as the other performance tuning components.
I believe the first reason that make all of us purchase a performance air filter is the sport sound that we all like, but generally there is a belief that performance filters will give you lots of horse power, like a minimum of 5hp, maybe more, even on a normally aspirated engine.
Now, if i say that performance air filters generate nothing except a sport sound, would you believe it? Your answer would normally be ????????????????no???????????????.. Yes, performance air filters do increase the horse power but only under certain conditions.. Please continue reading the article..
The Theory
The theory here is, as you let more air to the combustion chambers to mix with the fuel, you get more power, but the first point is that under which conditions does the air flow and do performance air filters really provide more air as it has been told?
Aerodynamics, or let??????????????????s call it air flow here, is so complicated so you can never be sure that the replacement of your conventional air filter with an open element filter (like K&N, Kingdragon or Green) will provide more air flow to the intake system
In-Box Applications
Let??????????????????s discuss in-box applications like replacing the stock filter with a in-box K&N first, for those who want to apply that kind of air filter mods. On a test which made with a test airbox measuring the flow resistance of air yielded the following results:
(The number 100% states the maximum flow resistance to the air, meaning the air is somehow obstructed maximum by the filter or the airbox itself while passing through the combustion chambers. Numbers lower than 100 indicate that air flows more easily relatively to the conditions represented with the number 100. It is natural that the air will flow most easily if you detach the filter and the airbox, thus the lower number is 37.5 meaning the least resistance has exposed to the air.
stock box w/ filter 100 %
stock box w/ K&N 100 %
stock box w/o filter 100 %
modified air box (trimmed) w/ filter 62.5%
modified w/K&N 56 %
individual filters 44 %
manifold only 37.5 %
This test has shown that changing the stock filter with an in-box performance filter like K&N is useless unless you make some mods to the airbox, but the most surprising result is that whether it??????????????????s an original filter or a performance filter like K&N, if you take one of these filters out and apply the test again with an empty air-box, there is still the same resistance like there is a filter inside. That??????????????????s really really hard to believe, but when you remember the test made with manifold only, you see that air still has a resistance of 37.5. So, that??????????????????s aerodynamics we talked before which is so hard to understand, and it??????????????????s not a big surprise that an airbox causes so much resistance.
It??????????????????s clear that changing the stock filter with an in-box performance filter like K&N is useless unless you make some mods to the airbox, and it??????????????????s clear that it??????????????????s not usual to drive without filter and the box, so instead of modifying the box, why don??????????????????t we use an open element cotton filter? We can get a result between 37.5 (the manifold only) and 56 (modified airbox with K&N). Now, the mostvital part of the article.. Please keep up reading..
Open Element Performance Air Filters
Normally, the air passing through the intake system is 21% oxygen while nitrous oxide is 33%. We all know that nitrous oxide is a power-boosting, complete and more expensive mod in tuning process, and i hope we all agree on the performance of this mod. Nitro increases the density of the oxygen in the air to 33% from 21%, which is still quite close to the natural density. Do you believe that a cotton performance filter can increase the density of yhe oxygen? No.. So, the only fact about the open element performance filters is that they only let some more air to pass through, and the most important question is that how much horse-power do we get from them?
Tests on dynamometers show that you will lose horsepower, not gain it if you don??????????????????t find a way to duct cool air directly to the cone filter. Unshielded cone filters (K&N or any other) were reported to yield a net loss in horse power. The factory filter pulls cool air from outside the engine compartment, while open cone filters will pull warm air from the area behind the radiator. Warm air is less dense than cold, so this can cost between 6-13 HP. Cone filters like K&N and similars only raise the HP's by 0-2 HP's on a normally aspirated engine, however, on turbocharged or supercharged engines, the increase is somewhat higher like 8-10 HP, according to the power and vol. of the engine.
Another issue on performance air filters is that they only affect the top end, meaning close to redline. You can feel a power loss at low revs. And one other is that the cotton filters let in considerably more dirt (300-500% more) than stock. Filter allows more dust and fine dirt particles into the engine, but general consensus is that this should make no difference to engine wear.
Filter Maintenance
To maintain good filtration performance, regular cleaning and application of filter oil is necessary. Otherwise the performance will be worse than the original. The cleaning period depends on driving conditions but a 6 month period is acceptable for average maintenance time. Maintenance exist of two sections: Cleaning and oiling.. To clean the filter, pour some gasoline into something like a large, PVC bottle, and dip the filter into the gasoline for 1-2 hours. Rinse the filter and let it dry. Re-oil the filter by spraying the oil onto the inside surface. That??????????????????s all..
Result
To get HP to increase, you need cold air... hot air will decrease HP. So find a way to isolate the filter. Use a special, large entry box that will help suck the cold air from outside the engine compartment, or cut the hood.
Change your driving characteristics. Change gear at slightly higher revs, cause you will get power at high revs especially closer to redline (I??????????????????m sure you also do that in any case, at least for hearing the sound).
Clean and re-oil your filter periodically. Even if you don??????????????????t clean the filter, just re-oil it so you can be sure that the fine particles or dust can??????????????????t pass through the filtering element.
Are you still there, I didn't really count anyone making it all the way thru, if you did than..
:clap:
First you can find the information for the K&N air filter
here...
http://www.knfilterchargers.com/search/pro...px?Prod=CD-4402
CD-4402 Product Specifications
Product Style: Unique Air Filters
Filter Re-Oiling Amount: 0.83 oz (25 ml)
Weight: 0.8 lb (0.4 kg)
Product Box Length: 6.44 in (163 mm)
Product Box Width: 6.38 in (162 mm)
Product Box Height: 7.13 in (181 mm)
Now here was some good web sites that I found...
http://www.off-road.com/atv/projects/rapto...2001/ehsracing/
http://www.off-road.com/atv/projects/rapto...es/P0002492.jpg
http://www.knpowersports.com/power_kits.htm
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/articles/air_filter.asp
In the above article it states the following,
Performance air filters has always been a starting point for those who want to take the first step into car tuning. This is because performance air filters are easy to apply and are not so expensive as the other performance tuning components.
I believe the first reason that make all of us purchase a performance air filter is the sport sound that we all like, but generally there is a belief that performance filters will give you lots of horse power, like a minimum of 5hp, maybe more, even on a normally aspirated engine.
Now, if i say that performance air filters generate nothing except a sport sound, would you believe it? Your answer would normally be ????????????????no???????????????.. Yes, performance air filters do increase the horse power but only under certain conditions.. Please continue reading the article..
The Theory
The theory here is, as you let more air to the combustion chambers to mix with the fuel, you get more power, but the first point is that under which conditions does the air flow and do performance air filters really provide more air as it has been told?
Aerodynamics, or let??????????????????s call it air flow here, is so complicated so you can never be sure that the replacement of your conventional air filter with an open element filter (like K&N, Kingdragon or Green) will provide more air flow to the intake system
In-Box Applications
Let??????????????????s discuss in-box applications like replacing the stock filter with a in-box K&N first, for those who want to apply that kind of air filter mods. On a test which made with a test airbox measuring the flow resistance of air yielded the following results:
(The number 100% states the maximum flow resistance to the air, meaning the air is somehow obstructed maximum by the filter or the airbox itself while passing through the combustion chambers. Numbers lower than 100 indicate that air flows more easily relatively to the conditions represented with the number 100. It is natural that the air will flow most easily if you detach the filter and the airbox, thus the lower number is 37.5 meaning the least resistance has exposed to the air.
stock box w/ filter 100 %
stock box w/ K&N 100 %
stock box w/o filter 100 %
modified air box (trimmed) w/ filter 62.5%
modified w/K&N 56 %
individual filters 44 %
manifold only 37.5 %
This test has shown that changing the stock filter with an in-box performance filter like K&N is useless unless you make some mods to the airbox, but the most surprising result is that whether it??????????????????s an original filter or a performance filter like K&N, if you take one of these filters out and apply the test again with an empty air-box, there is still the same resistance like there is a filter inside. That??????????????????s really really hard to believe, but when you remember the test made with manifold only, you see that air still has a resistance of 37.5. So, that??????????????????s aerodynamics we talked before which is so hard to understand, and it??????????????????s not a big surprise that an airbox causes so much resistance.
It??????????????????s clear that changing the stock filter with an in-box performance filter like K&N is useless unless you make some mods to the airbox, and it??????????????????s clear that it??????????????????s not usual to drive without filter and the box, so instead of modifying the box, why don??????????????????t we use an open element cotton filter? We can get a result between 37.5 (the manifold only) and 56 (modified airbox with K&N). Now, the mostvital part of the article.. Please keep up reading..
Open Element Performance Air Filters
Normally, the air passing through the intake system is 21% oxygen while nitrous oxide is 33%. We all know that nitrous oxide is a power-boosting, complete and more expensive mod in tuning process, and i hope we all agree on the performance of this mod. Nitro increases the density of the oxygen in the air to 33% from 21%, which is still quite close to the natural density. Do you believe that a cotton performance filter can increase the density of yhe oxygen? No.. So, the only fact about the open element performance filters is that they only let some more air to pass through, and the most important question is that how much horse-power do we get from them?
Tests on dynamometers show that you will lose horsepower, not gain it if you don??????????????????t find a way to duct cool air directly to the cone filter. Unshielded cone filters (K&N or any other) were reported to yield a net loss in horse power. The factory filter pulls cool air from outside the engine compartment, while open cone filters will pull warm air from the area behind the radiator. Warm air is less dense than cold, so this can cost between 6-13 HP. Cone filters like K&N and similars only raise the HP's by 0-2 HP's on a normally aspirated engine, however, on turbocharged or supercharged engines, the increase is somewhat higher like 8-10 HP, according to the power and vol. of the engine.
Another issue on performance air filters is that they only affect the top end, meaning close to redline. You can feel a power loss at low revs. And one other is that the cotton filters let in considerably more dirt (300-500% more) than stock. Filter allows more dust and fine dirt particles into the engine, but general consensus is that this should make no difference to engine wear.
Filter Maintenance
To maintain good filtration performance, regular cleaning and application of filter oil is necessary. Otherwise the performance will be worse than the original. The cleaning period depends on driving conditions but a 6 month period is acceptable for average maintenance time. Maintenance exist of two sections: Cleaning and oiling.. To clean the filter, pour some gasoline into something like a large, PVC bottle, and dip the filter into the gasoline for 1-2 hours. Rinse the filter and let it dry. Re-oil the filter by spraying the oil onto the inside surface. That??????????????????s all..
Result
To get HP to increase, you need cold air... hot air will decrease HP. So find a way to isolate the filter. Use a special, large entry box that will help suck the cold air from outside the engine compartment, or cut the hood.
Change your driving characteristics. Change gear at slightly higher revs, cause you will get power at high revs especially closer to redline (I??????????????????m sure you also do that in any case, at least for hearing the sound).
Clean and re-oil your filter periodically. Even if you don??????????????????t clean the filter, just re-oil it so you can be sure that the fine particles or dust can??????????????????t pass through the filtering element.
Are you still there, I didn't really count anyone making it all the way thru, if you did than..
:clap:
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Canniboomer
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
Wow! are you out of breath?! Great write-up, by the way.
I'm using vented "deletes" for more air scoop and venting across upper spars and then forced back-thru around tank -- it probably helps.
With the filter mod, I only detect FASTER, and more HP, not less, and instant throaty response. As for the consequence of "pre-heated" air off of the radiator, you could probably expect some of that when just sitting and idling -- but you could also make the similar observation that the dead-air front hood under dark plastic in sunlight would give "attic-level" heat to our stock filter, and slower to cool down while underway.
Also, the filter mod enables you to move the fuelpump and fuel filter to a cooler location, not directly behind and nearly touching the radiator.
And just one more observation -- (your gonna LOVE this one!, and may not even believe it!). "LESS airborne crud in the ECU tray". I think our stock box must be like a camper shell on the back of a truck on a dusty road, with a leaky tailgate.
The air to our filter is vacuumed in hard from behind through a relatively small area, but then has a large void around filter (pressure drop compared to intake area) , and the heavy particles fall around -- I note more sand, more dust, more seeds, more debris of all types laying on/around the ECU and connects. After the mod, and several trips hard riding, I'm amazed at how much cleaner the tray is now! Much larger opening for air to the hood area now that the filter is gone -- and it stays cleaner? go figure! it's just physics, I guess.
I'm using vented "deletes" for more air scoop and venting across upper spars and then forced back-thru around tank -- it probably helps.
With the filter mod, I only detect FASTER, and more HP, not less, and instant throaty response. As for the consequence of "pre-heated" air off of the radiator, you could probably expect some of that when just sitting and idling -- but you could also make the similar observation that the dead-air front hood under dark plastic in sunlight would give "attic-level" heat to our stock filter, and slower to cool down while underway.
Also, the filter mod enables you to move the fuelpump and fuel filter to a cooler location, not directly behind and nearly touching the radiator.
And just one more observation -- (your gonna LOVE this one!, and may not even believe it!). "LESS airborne crud in the ECU tray". I think our stock box must be like a camper shell on the back of a truck on a dusty road, with a leaky tailgate.
The air to our filter is vacuumed in hard from behind through a relatively small area, but then has a large void around filter (pressure drop compared to intake area) , and the heavy particles fall around -- I note more sand, more dust, more seeds, more debris of all types laying on/around the ECU and connects. After the mod, and several trips hard riding, I'm amazed at how much cleaner the tray is now! Much larger opening for air to the hood area now that the filter is gone -- and it stays cleaner? go figure! it's just physics, I guess.
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cdalerider75
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
did you ever hook up your D&M kit to measure the diff?? I will be doing this tomorrow at the track.
You did hit the nail on the head with the junk that builds up around your ECU. I am always washing my tray out...
I had contacted K&N to inquire about the air flow rate of the K&N model CD-4402 which is for our cdales. Please see the following
Dear Christopher,
Doing a conservative calculation based on the flat surface area of this
K&N, it will flow at least 500cfm at 100% volumetric efficiency.
Thanks for writing,
Shaun McClure
Technical Support
K&N Engineering
Now do you know what the air flow rate is of the air filter you are using? Flat surface area combined with the medium used for the filter will determin what your air flow rate is.
I will keep you posted on what I have found after my testing.
You did hit the nail on the head with the junk that builds up around your ECU. I am always washing my tray out...
I had contacted K&N to inquire about the air flow rate of the K&N model CD-4402 which is for our cdales. Please see the following
Dear Christopher,
Doing a conservative calculation based on the flat surface area of this
K&N, it will flow at least 500cfm at 100% volumetric efficiency.
Thanks for writing,
Shaun McClure
Technical Support
K&N Engineering
Now do you know what the air flow rate is of the air filter you are using? Flat surface area combined with the medium used for the filter will determin what your air flow rate is.
I will keep you posted on what I have found after my testing.
i think you guys are gettin a little overbaord here. there is no way in he** that our dales engines could ever draw more intake than a k&n could handle. put the filter on and call it good, whether it be a custom setup like mine, or a simple stock replacement. there are always a few rules that apply to any engine that you want to make horsepower.
more air (and fuel mixed correctly)= more power
faster scavenging of exhaust= more power
cooler fuel= more power
cooler engine temp= more power
you're killin me with the huge posts:drink: :drink: :drink:
more air (and fuel mixed correctly)= more power
faster scavenging of exhaust= more power
cooler fuel= more power
cooler engine temp= more power
you're killin me with the huge posts:drink: :drink: :drink:
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cdalemx301
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
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Canniboomer
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
T.G.I.F...... thank god it's FUGITV !
But to berate this issue a bit more, my filter is probably not as large as that CD-whatever stock K&N up front in the ECU tray.... My Glamis has the K&N sleeved and outerweared and still draws better, rain or shine or mud-runnin' -- so I'm convinced that even a 3-stage and 1/3 smaller K&N is better than the stock foam-on-foam.
Let's go ridin!
But to berate this issue a bit more, my filter is probably not as large as that CD-whatever stock K&N up front in the ECU tray.... My Glamis has the K&N sleeved and outerweared and still draws better, rain or shine or mud-runnin' -- so I'm convinced that even a 3-stage and 1/3 smaller K&N is better than the stock foam-on-foam.
Let's go ridin!