Timing issue

[CannibalAnimal]

I recently rebuilt engine. After putting it back together, I tried to crank engine and but it will not start. I took the engine back down to check timing. Long story short, when I first rebuilt engine, I had it line up with timing marks as shown in manaul. But from recently viewed posts, I found out that the manual was not correct. So, now that the engine is back down, I have it at TDC and the marks are off. What is the best way to time engine correctly? I am trying to avoid taking the head off. Is there any way to time it by the timing chain idler?

[Canniboomer]

The various markings will only line up about once in every fifty-something rotations -- but the two cams will be at the same position for every rotation to TDC. So, dry-turning of the motor is NOT needed to easily verify timing. You can count teeth for any in-between position, or about 57 times out of 58 if just opening a motor. You should see the cam-gear marks along the line from the center-of-idler to the center of each cam. Also, an imaginary line from the center of each cam toward the upper inside through the gearmark should align with the pointed lobe of each cam. It's not necessary to pull off the timing chain and idler, unless you first verify that the timing is out of whack.

But, if you actually had removed and replaced the cam GEARS to the cams, yes the Service Manual is back-asswards for the gearpin locations. If you did not mess with either cam gear, you should still be OK by having followed the manual.

If you open the Service manual to those pages,...give a call!

[kevin444]

it's kinda weird that there are all these problems with timing. i recently did a complete rebuild and didi nothing other than line up all the markings. she fired right up and makes awsome power throughout the entire power band.

hey boomer....you still heading down to vegas anytime soon? i want to possibly grab the trail tech kit from you; are they in stock or do you have them dropped shipped?

Kevin

good luck with the timing....give boomer a call he will get you running.....even faster if would like!

[Canniboomer]

Hey Kevin!...thanks and yep, I'll be down there during this month.
For Trailtech items, we just go in there about once a week -- they are just a few miles down the road from here.
I have to change the various kits to adapt to the Cannondales, so everything ships from here.
...just email for the Vapor or Vector options.
......For the possible timing issue this thread, Kevin note that if you pulled down your machine right now,....none of the timing marks would line up either. Once the motor starts and then stops, the idler and timechain marks are jumbled....only the two camgears return to the same position with each and every TDC. So for a random opening of any motor, you would instead count teeth to verify your earlier work, and possibly avoid having to pull off more components. He may have timed it just fine, or he may be a victim of the Service Manual -- if camgears were removed.
Or, maybe it's the flywheel or crank key.
One customer did the whole job, with the same no-start results -- but it turned out that he put the TDC bolt in at the very edge of the main crank lobe, and not in to the small black "hole" in the crank lobe. Since the crank did not rotate (in the direction he tried anyway), he thought the crank was indeed locked at TDC -- not.

[CannibalAnimal]

QUOTE (Canniboomer @ Feb 3 2009, 03:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Kevin!...thanks and yep, I'll be down there during this month.
For Trailtech items, we just go in there about once a week -- they are just a few miles down the road from here.
I have to change the various kits to adapt to the Cannondales, so everything ships from here.
...just email for the Vapor or Vector options.
......For the possible timing issue this thread, Kevin note that if you pulled down your machine right now,....none of the timing marks would line up either. Once the motor starts and then stops, the idler and timechain marks are jumbled....only the two camgears return to the same position with each and every TDC. So for a random opening of any motor, you would instead count teeth to verify your earlier work, and possibly avoid having to pull off more components. He may have timed it just fine, or he may be a victim of the Service Manual -- if camgears were removed.
Or, maybe it's the flywheel or crank key.
One customer did the whole job, with the same no-start results -- but it turned out that he put the TDC bolt in at the very edge of the main crank lobe, and not in to the small black "hole" in the crank lobe. Since the crank did not rotate (in the direction he tried anyway), he thought the crank was indeed locked at TDC -- not.

Thanks for all the help on the timing. Dropped engine and it was significantly off. Apparently, when we screwed the TDC bolt in we thought we had it at TDC hole but was not. We was using wrong screw. Got correct screw and sure enough, timing was off.

Now we have another problem. Dale cranked once ran for five secs and then we shut it off to put everything back on. Now it will not crank again. Could that be a result of throttle setting?

[Canniboomer]

Check the clutch interlock wiring, if so equipped, the main fuse, and other harness-switch connections.
Maybe something just came loose. It would not be the throttle setting -- that would not prevent it from cranking.

[CannibalAnimal]

QUOTE (Canniboomer @ Feb 19 2009, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check the clutch interlock wiring, if so equipped, the main fuse, and other harness-switch connections.
Maybe something just came loose. It would not be the throttle setting -- that would not prevent it from cranking.

Another question....I went looking for hydraulic fluid and was not able to find any so Suzuki shop said use some brake fluid. Can I use brake fluid in place of hydraulic fluid?

[peterock]

QUOTE (CannibalAnimal @ Feb 19 2009, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for all the help on the timing. Dropped engine and it was significantly off. Apparently, when we screwed the TDC bolt in we thought we had it at TDC hole but was not. We was using wrong screw. Got correct screw and sure enough, timing was off.

Now we have another problem. Dale cranked once ran for five secs and then we shut it off to put everything back on. Now it will not crank again. Could that be a result of throttle setting?

What do you mean by "put everything back on"?

Does fuel pump prime when you turn the key on?

[MX Quad Dad]

QUOTE (CannibalAnimal @ Feb 19 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another question....I went looking for hydraulic fluid and was not able to find any so Suzuki shop said use some brake fluid. Can I use brake fluid in place of hydraulic fluid?

if you are talkimg about for the clutch, I would say no. there are posts on this site on that subject. Mangura Blood seems to get the popular vote but there are other options.

[Trouble]

my ktm mx bikes both say mineral oil on the clutch resivoirs(?),they are magura hydraulic clutches stock from the factory..