Transmission Parts/Observations

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NRath · #1 Post by **NRath** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:09 pm

I wanted to post up something that I found a while back relating to another mixed bag of cookies from Cannondale. When I had the motor apart a couple years ago, I went into the trans to drop in the motard 5th. After putting the cassette back together and watching the gears spin awhile and gears shift, I spotted the problem just posted about with the 2nd gear teeth interference. Figuring I had put it back together wrong, assembly was verified repeatedly with the manual to find it was right. So, I dug into may stash, grabbed an old vintage FX trans to see if it did it, too. In fact- no, it didn't. The interference area had been cut away when the gears were made! So, swapping those gears is how I fixed the clackety-clack problem.
I then spotted that the FX gears had much more metal machined away than the '03 gears. So, what's a gearhead to do but start swapping the rest of teh gears that were lightened! Somewhere along the way I ran into a problem with the main shaft that the clutch basket rides on and swapped in the old one, also. I really wish I could remember the issue there. So, the cassette went back together and into the case. Time is drawing short as a ride was fast approaching- a trip to Hatfield-McCoy. When I went to button up the clutch- the hub wouldn't go on! This was the '03 hub with the large roller bearing in it with the pressed in clutch adjuster that wasn't sliding into the shaft from the FX. Low and behold, the hole in the older shaft was smaller- about .030" as I recall. So, the newer hub won't fit! Fortunately the older one with the thrust bearing is good and I'm back in business! A couple quick test rides and all seems good. In the trailer off to WV we go!
First ride of the day, it doesn't take long to find the clutch is in fact slipping a little. Back to the trailhead- the favorite place to bust open engine covers! What I decipher is that the pushrod is too long with my mixed bag of parts. Filed it down a little with the rustiest file in West Virginia, which I was very grateful to be able to borrow

. And it's been working great for probably 20hrs since. Until this little problem I'm having now- discussed in a different thread.

My point is- there are different gears, some are def lighter than others! The 2nd gear issue was addressed at one time, but they apparently overlooked it as parts had to get cheaper. There are apparently 2 different lengths of pushrods, as well.

So, there's another .02 of Cannondale 101 that I haven't seen on the forums before. I'm sure the guru's have seen it, but probably never thought to post it. Or, maybe they're hoarding all those good gears!

I should have posted before, but I did what all good quad owners should- Went Riding!! Pic of the 2 styles of hubs below, just because it was handy.

wistech · #2 Post by **wistech** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:07 pm

The cable push rods and pressure plates are not to be intermixed between cable and hydro engines. The cable pressure plates have a thrust bearing and the newer ones are a ball bearing.
The adjuster stud in the center is also a different length.
Im not so sure the gears were machined less to lighten then rather to make them stronger. Maybe an engineer would remember the exact reasoning. Either way Ive only seen a handfull of broken gears and most were from chewing up oil filter screens.

NRath · #3 Post by **NRath** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:18 pm

So, are you saying none of the hydro clutches you've seen have had the thrust bearing pressure plate? I'm curious about that as I would expect the thrust is the old design (like you said) and is probably what came on FX's and early Cannibals, which were hydro. That's just speculation on my part and could surely be wrong.

I found out yesterday afternoon that a little birdie found that there are in fact 4 different pushrods that were made. Exact applications and differences are unknown.

I took .060" off of mine yesterday which is in addition to probably about the same at the trail head. The set screw still sticks out pretty far and I'd guess that at 4 turns out, it's unlikely it's even touching the pushrod. I set it at 2-1/2 out and hope to get to test ride it in the next day or two.

wistech · #4 Post by **wistech** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:53 pm

Are you installing an extra steel on the inside of the clutch pack?

kdeal · #5 Post by **kdeal** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:48 pm

Neil, You are using a hodge podge of different parts and I believe that is why you may be having issues. The thrust bearing type pusher is for use with the pushrod that has the teet on the end for cable clutches. The one without the extended tip is used in the hydro clutch motors. You will also most likely find that the transmission that originally came from has a smaller hole for the pusher to go thru. So if you use the later style pusher with the FX transmission it will not fit. The pusher you have will fit all of transmissions but will be a looser fit on the newer ones. Check your clutch hub near the bottom flange and see if there is a groove cut into the hub. This will cause the engagement issues you are describing.

Ken

promod · #6 Post by **promod** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:00 pm

QUOTE (kdeal @ Apr 9 2013, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neil, You are using a hodge podge of different parts and I believe that is why you may be having issues. The thrust bearing type pusher is for use with the pushrod that has the teet on the end for cable clutches. The one without the extended tip is used in the hydro clutch motors. You will also most likely find that the transmission that originally came from has a smaller hole for the pusher to go thru. So if you use the later style pusher with the FX transmission it will not fit. The pusher you have will fit all of transmissions but will be a looser fit on the newer ones. Check your clutch hub near the bottom flange and see if there is a groove cut into the hub. This will cause the engagement issues you are describing.

Ken

Neil, Here is a pic of the two different clutch rods i took a while back for another mod purpose but thought it might clarify which push rod your using with a pic and of course Ken's description of the two rods and using them with other mixed clutch components!

Ciao!

NRath · #7 Post by **NRath** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:52 pm

QUOTE (kdeal @ Apr 9 2013, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neil, You are using a hodge podge of different parts and I believe that is why you may be having issues.

You've got that right! LOL That's why I tried to be descriptive in the OP about what I had. Odd part is that it did work fine for 95% of an H-M trip and 90% of the last group ride. That's probably about 12-13 hrs of ride time.

QUOTE (kdeal @ Apr 9 2013, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check your clutch hub near the bottom flange and see if there is a groove cut into the hub. This will cause the engagement issues you are describing.

Thanks for this tip, I'm not 100% clear where the groove is your talking about. Where the pusher rides? If so, yes, I have the groove, which is where the thrust bearing pusher sits. And, I found most of what you said as I put it back together originally- I used the FX main shaft for whatever reason, then found the new style pusher wouldn't fit the hole in it, so I went to the FX hub and pusher. Still using my newer hydro pushrod.

Promod- thanks for the pic. Did you check to see if they were the same overall length? Not that it really matters as there likely are other dimensional differences between actuator arm and slave cylinder locations. So, I guess I'm just curious.

promod · #8 Post by **promod** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:28 pm

QUOTE (NRath @ Apr 10 2013, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Promod- thanks for the pic. Did you check to see if they were the same overall length? Not that it really matters as there likely are other dimensional differences between actuator arm and slave cylinder locations. So, I guess I'm just curious.

Yes!, They are the same length overall from tip to tip!...or all the ones ive seen are!...anyone correct me if im wrong!

kdeal · #9 Post by **kdeal** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:35 am

QUOTE (NRath @ Apr 10 2013, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've got that right! LOL That's why I tried to be descriptive in the OP about what I had. Odd part is that it did work fine for 95% of an H-M trip and 90% of the last group ride. That's probably about 12-13 hrs of ride time.

Thanks for this tip, I'm not 100% clear where the groove is your talking about. Where the pusher rides? If so, yes, I have the groove, which is where the thrust bearing pusher sits. And, I found most of what you said as I put it back together originally- I used the FX main shaft for whatever reason, then found the new style pusher wouldn't fit the hole in it, so I went to the FX hub and pusher. Still using my newer hydro pushrod.

Promod- thanks for the pic. Did you check to see if they were the same overall length? Not that it really matters as there likely are other dimensional differences between actuator arm and slave cylinder locations. So, I guess I'm just curious.

Neil, look where the first steel plate goes on the clutch hub, not the pressure plate. Down low where the steel clutch plates grab on the center hub.

NRath · #10 Post by **NRath** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:05 pm

QUOTE (kdeal @ Apr 10 2013, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neil, look where the first steel plate goes on the clutch hub, not the pressure plate. Down low where the steel clutch plates grab on the center hub.

Will do, after a test run.