Atheism????
QUOTE (jwheat @ Jan 31 2007, 05:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
MAN!!!!! Y'all have been busy today while I was at work. I guess I'll get back into this discussion for the moment.
Smitty..... Yahweh was a god of war and volcanoes and part of a pantheon of gods which included Baal,god of fertility and storms, and Asherah, the Mother goddess. These gods along with some others were worshiped
by the Phoenicians and the CanaanitesBoth of these groups are from descendants of Cain. they would follow a false god. Baal was originally worshiped by the Israelites as the true God. Israel, Issac and Jacob never followed the false gods the pagan followed. God made a covenant with Israel, why would they change his name? and The followers of Yahweh engaged in a conflict over time with followers of Baal to establish Yahweh as the one true God and Baal was basically demoted to a pagan god and then a demon. This is most likely where God vs. Satan came from since Baal is later referred to as a prince of demons and Yahweh's main enemy. I believe the book of Genesis predates the events you are talking about. When the Israelites came into the land promised by god the people there worshiped baal and asherah. One story in the Bible a challenge was made to the priest of baal and all the priest were consumed in fire.
Why in the Pauline epistles does Paul not give a more detail account of Jesus? What details do you feel is missing. Remember that Saul met Jesus on the rode to Damascus, after the resurrection. He only knew him in his post ascended form. He speaks more of him as a supernatural personage only on Earth at an unspecified time in the past. For those of you who don't know, the Pauline epistles are the 13-14 letters written by the apostle Paul in the New Testament and are widely regarded as some of the earliest documents in the Christian religion.
Why are there such striking similarities between the birth and death and resurrection of Jesus and the birth and death and resurrection of Osiris-Horus in the Egyptian religion which occurred about 300 years before Jesus? It's awfully strange that Horus was born in Heliopolis which is referred to as the house of bread in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which in Hebrew means house of bread. There are also stories in pretty much all cultures about a global flood. Alot of hymns are old drinking songs with the names changed. Similarities exist for several reason. Marketing would be one. ex I want people to watch my commercial. They normally change the channels or get something to drink. There is a big game coming, so I incorporate that game into my commercial strategy and play them in the middle during a break. Whala people can't wait to watch my commercial. Not the best analogy. Did Christian borrow some old pagan stuff, I believe we did, Christmas tree comes to mind. Does that make the story false. NOPE.
Isis in Egyptian mythology was commonly referred to as Meri, meaning beloved, and she was the mother of Horus. Mary was the mother of Jesus in Christian beliefs. Isis became pregnant by the "breath of life" which is roughly the same as the Holy Spirit in Christianity. Isis (Meri) was considered to be a virgin when she became pregnant as was Mary. The only problem with the above is the history record the names and events that scholars today have not dis-proven.
Why does Christianity have a mythology? I thought it was based entirely on fact, not myths. If you look up the words Christian Mythology it will give a whole lists of myths based on Christianity. I looked I'll be reading up on them. Thanks for the information.
The birthdate for Jesus is actually considered to be the 6th of January. Where did you get that date from? That just happens to be the same day the Egyptians say Osirus-Horus was born on and the day the Greeks say that the god Dionysus was born on.
The first "Christ mass" was officiated by Pope Sixtus III in 435 to overshadow the pagan celebration by the Romans of the birth of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Marketing again, getting people to change their belief can be slow and painful.
If one day to God is 1000 years to us and God created everything in 7 days, why does all known scientific (carbon-dated) evidence not place any human remains as old as prehistoric creatures. We can prove that dinosaurs and other animals live millions of years ago, but we can't place humans anywhere near that time. We can place dinosaurs back to 240 million years ago and we have dated the earth to 4.54 billion year old...... why does the Bible's time frame not match that.
Ok, that's enough for one night. We'll talk more tomorrow night. I hope so.
Smitty..... Yahweh was a god of war and volcanoes and part of a pantheon of gods which included Baal,god of fertility and storms, and Asherah, the Mother goddess. These gods along with some others were worshiped
by the Phoenicians and the CanaanitesBoth of these groups are from descendants of Cain. they would follow a false god. Baal was originally worshiped by the Israelites as the true God. Israel, Issac and Jacob never followed the false gods the pagan followed. God made a covenant with Israel, why would they change his name? and The followers of Yahweh engaged in a conflict over time with followers of Baal to establish Yahweh as the one true God and Baal was basically demoted to a pagan god and then a demon. This is most likely where God vs. Satan came from since Baal is later referred to as a prince of demons and Yahweh's main enemy. I believe the book of Genesis predates the events you are talking about. When the Israelites came into the land promised by god the people there worshiped baal and asherah. One story in the Bible a challenge was made to the priest of baal and all the priest were consumed in fire.
Why in the Pauline epistles does Paul not give a more detail account of Jesus? What details do you feel is missing. Remember that Saul met Jesus on the rode to Damascus, after the resurrection. He only knew him in his post ascended form. He speaks more of him as a supernatural personage only on Earth at an unspecified time in the past. For those of you who don't know, the Pauline epistles are the 13-14 letters written by the apostle Paul in the New Testament and are widely regarded as some of the earliest documents in the Christian religion.
Why are there such striking similarities between the birth and death and resurrection of Jesus and the birth and death and resurrection of Osiris-Horus in the Egyptian religion which occurred about 300 years before Jesus? It's awfully strange that Horus was born in Heliopolis which is referred to as the house of bread in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which in Hebrew means house of bread. There are also stories in pretty much all cultures about a global flood. Alot of hymns are old drinking songs with the names changed. Similarities exist for several reason. Marketing would be one. ex I want people to watch my commercial. They normally change the channels or get something to drink. There is a big game coming, so I incorporate that game into my commercial strategy and play them in the middle during a break. Whala people can't wait to watch my commercial. Not the best analogy. Did Christian borrow some old pagan stuff, I believe we did, Christmas tree comes to mind. Does that make the story false. NOPE.
Isis in Egyptian mythology was commonly referred to as Meri, meaning beloved, and she was the mother of Horus. Mary was the mother of Jesus in Christian beliefs. Isis became pregnant by the "breath of life" which is roughly the same as the Holy Spirit in Christianity. Isis (Meri) was considered to be a virgin when she became pregnant as was Mary. The only problem with the above is the history record the names and events that scholars today have not dis-proven.
Why does Christianity have a mythology? I thought it was based entirely on fact, not myths. If you look up the words Christian Mythology it will give a whole lists of myths based on Christianity. I looked I'll be reading up on them. Thanks for the information.
The birthdate for Jesus is actually considered to be the 6th of January. Where did you get that date from? That just happens to be the same day the Egyptians say Osirus-Horus was born on and the day the Greeks say that the god Dionysus was born on.
The first "Christ mass" was officiated by Pope Sixtus III in 435 to overshadow the pagan celebration by the Romans of the birth of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Marketing again, getting people to change their belief can be slow and painful.
If one day to God is 1000 years to us and God created everything in 7 days, why does all known scientific (carbon-dated) evidence not place any human remains as old as prehistoric creatures. We can prove that dinosaurs and other animals live millions of years ago, but we can't place humans anywhere near that time. We can place dinosaurs back to 240 million years ago and we have dated the earth to 4.54 billion year old...... why does the Bible's time frame not match that.
Ok, that's enough for one night. We'll talk more tomorrow night. I hope so.
Jwheat,
You have been busy as well. I found this link to much of the above information. Christian Myths where did you get your information?
I will be reading up on it. On the surface you can see parallels. At this point I believe that the Torah predates most of what you are talking about. Your point also assumes that the people that were killed and tortured for their belief in Jesus as God in the flesh, died horrible deaths based on a stolen story that they knew was false. That would be hard but not impossible to believe, they died for a lie. I've also put some notes above in red
The issue with carbon dating is well know. Can you tell me how much carbon was in the atmosphere when those animals died? Prove that dinosaurs and other animals lived millions of years ago. The Book of Job talks about what could be a brontosaurus. Anceint cave paintings show a small man hunting what appears to be a brontosaurus. I have not seen or read any information that would lead me to believe that anything happened millions of years ago. They have found fossils and dated them based on two things, carbon and strata. The carbon has some well know issues, and strata dating is circular reasoning. Man has dated the earths age based on what? half lives of radio active samples. Do we know what the levels were when the earth was made? Since we have been able to measure half life's for the last 50 years, do we have enough data to say that they are constant? every seen a battery power graph, rapid drop, to a slow steady drain, to a complete drop off.
I work with Fiber Optic LASER systems, so we can measure the speed of light. We KNOW what it is, agreed. You may not be aware that they have slowed down the speed of light in recent experiments to almost a complete stop. I would say that the speed of light is not a constant at this point. Yes, in a vacuum, what was the density of space a couple of hundred years ago, a couple of thousand years ago. We don't know. We postulate and attempt to find the answers, but It's a moving bulls eye.
The birthday of Jesus is not really December 25th. Christians have known or should have known all along. Shepard's would not have been on a hill, in the middle of December when the angles came to them.
Talk to you later, good information worth the research. I'll do mine, if you do yours.
Smitty
QUOTE (timbomoose @ Jan 31 2007, 06:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Baal,god of fertility and storms"
You got it all wrong.Baal is a goa'ould on stargate.Same with Osirus. Get your stories strait! Just kidding and never mind me. Just enjoying reading. Everyone has good points. Who say's people can't discuss religion and personal beliefs with difference of opinions without mass chaos. Everyone can learn a little something and benefit from others opinions.The bible is written by man and inspired by God and also translated by man.Science is mostly theories.Carbon dating for instance can't be proved.No ones been around long enough to check its accuracy.History books are sometimes accurate and sometimes not.The only true way for complete knowledge is to actually live it 1st hand.This is a good post and I believe everyone is learning something from everyone else.I think most religions are a good thing just as long as its positive. Belief in God comes down to, its your own personal faith and what you are is how you live your life. Don't just settle with one answer, question everything and then make up your own mind.Thats how true knowledge is learned.There's almost never just one right answer.
You got it all wrong.Baal is a goa'ould on stargate.Same with Osirus. Get your stories strait! Just kidding and never mind me. Just enjoying reading. Everyone has good points. Who say's people can't discuss religion and personal beliefs with difference of opinions without mass chaos. Everyone can learn a little something and benefit from others opinions.The bible is written by man and inspired by God and also translated by man.Science is mostly theories.Carbon dating for instance can't be proved.No ones been around long enough to check its accuracy.History books are sometimes accurate and sometimes not.The only true way for complete knowledge is to actually live it 1st hand.This is a good post and I believe everyone is learning something from everyone else.I think most religions are a good thing just as long as its positive. Belief in God comes down to, its your own personal faith and what you are is how you live your life. Don't just settle with one answer, question everything and then make up your own mind.Thats how true knowledge is learned.There's almost never just one right answer.
I've gotta agree with you, question your beliefs. Make sure you know why you believe something. The truth is self supporting.
Thanks for not locking this thread. It has been informative.
Smitty
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cannondale27
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A 25% error could be huge.What if Neandrathal and man were around at same time?Two different species.
Smitty read this.I shouldnt have said $ but he evidently was in charge of distribution.Yes he was stoned for Blasphemy but why was he in a position to have too debate?And what did he say?
All we know of Stephen is found in Acts of the Apostles, chapters six and seven. It is enough to tell us what kind of man he was:
At that time, as the number of disciples continued to grow, the Hellenist (Greek-speaking) Christians complained about the Hebrew-speaking Christians, saying that their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, ???????It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.??????? The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the Holy Spirit.... (Acts 6:1-5)
Acts says that Stephen was a man filled with grace and power, who worked great wonders among the people. Certain Jews, members of the Synagogue of Roman Freedmen, debated with Stephen but proved no match for the wisdom and spirit with which he spoke. They persuaded others to make the charge of blasphemy against him. He was seized and carried before the Sanhedrin.
In his speech, Stephen recalled God????????s guidance through Israel????????s history, as well as Israel????????s idolatry and disobedience. He then claimed that his persecutors were showing this same spirit. ???????[Y]ou always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors??????? (Acts 7:51b).
His speech brought anger from the crowd. ???????But [Stephen], filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ???????Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God....???????? They threw him out of the city, and began to stone him....As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ???????Lord Jesus, receive my spirit....Lord, do not hold this sin against them??????????????? (Acts 7:55-56, 58a, 59, 60b).
Smitty read this.I shouldnt have said $ but he evidently was in charge of distribution.Yes he was stoned for Blasphemy but why was he in a position to have too debate?And what did he say?
All we know of Stephen is found in Acts of the Apostles, chapters six and seven. It is enough to tell us what kind of man he was:
At that time, as the number of disciples continued to grow, the Hellenist (Greek-speaking) Christians complained about the Hebrew-speaking Christians, saying that their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, ???????It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.??????? The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the Holy Spirit.... (Acts 6:1-5)
Acts says that Stephen was a man filled with grace and power, who worked great wonders among the people. Certain Jews, members of the Synagogue of Roman Freedmen, debated with Stephen but proved no match for the wisdom and spirit with which he spoke. They persuaded others to make the charge of blasphemy against him. He was seized and carried before the Sanhedrin.
In his speech, Stephen recalled God????????s guidance through Israel????????s history, as well as Israel????????s idolatry and disobedience. He then claimed that his persecutors were showing this same spirit. ???????[Y]ou always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors??????? (Acts 7:51b).
His speech brought anger from the crowd. ???????But [Stephen], filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ???????Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God....???????? They threw him out of the city, and began to stone him....As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ???????Lord Jesus, receive my spirit....Lord, do not hold this sin against them??????????????? (Acts 7:55-56, 58a, 59, 60b).
QUOTE (Happyboy @ Jan 31 2007, 07:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We use more precise measures than just carbon dating now. And yes, it has been proved. It is not 100% accurate but even with a 25% swag in the numbers it still gets you thinking OLD!! Ever heard of physics? We know what we are looking at.
I agree with Sean on this one. I used Carbon-dating earlier because it is the most commonly known so most people would know what I'm talking about. Maybe I should have used Thorium- dating which has a half-life of 14 billion years or Rubidium-87 -dating which has a half-life of 49 billion years whereas Carbon-dating only has a half-life of 5,700 years. The decaying rate of these materials has been proven within a certain amount a error which is allowed for.... that why the age of something is generally given with a certain range of years to allow for this error. Even if you take Sean's 25%(which would be a huge margin of error) off of the dates you still can't place anything in the Bible even closely to the above mentioned dates.
Even if you take Job's account in the Bible, which is the only that has been given here, that only puts humans and dinosaurs at the same place at one time in history. That still doesn't place man as far back as most dinosaurs.... only some dinosaurs still alive when man first started recording history.
Gotta go to work. We'll talk more tonight.
Jimbo
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cannondale27
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Just read this.Brings more questions to my mind.Dates are important also.What is stated in regards to Paul.Wow is it true?These people dont deny the existence of Jesus just seem to question the portrayal the Bible gives of him.Does that make me an Atheist also?
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm
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cannondale27
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Jan 31 2007, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A 25% error could be huge.What if Neandrathal and man were around at same time?Two different species.
Smitty read this.I shouldnt have said $ but he evidently was in charge of distribution.Yes he was stoned for Blasphemy but why was he in a position to have too debate?And what did he say?
All we know of Stephen is found in Acts of the Apostles, chapters six and seven. It is enough to tell us what kind of man he was:
At that time, as the number of disciples continued to grow, the Hellenist (Greek-speaking) Christians complained about the Hebrew-speaking Christians, saying that their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, ???????It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.??????? The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the Holy Spirit.... (Acts 6:1-5)
Acts says that Stephen was a man filled with grace and power, who worked great wonders among the people. Certain Jews, members of the Synagogue of Roman Freedmen, debated with Stephen but proved no match for the wisdom and spirit with which he spoke. They persuaded others to make the charge of blasphemy against him. He was seized and carried before the Sanhedrin.
In his speech, Stephen recalled God????????s guidance through Israel????????s history, as well as Israel????????s idolatry and disobedience. He then claimed that his persecutors were showing this same spirit. ???????[Y]ou always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors??????? (Acts 7:51b).
His speech brought anger from the crowd. ???????But [Stephen], filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ???????Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God....???????? They threw him out of the city, and began to stone him....As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ???????Lord Jesus, receive my spirit....Lord, do not hold this sin against them??????????????? (Acts 7:55-56, 58a, 59, 60b).
Smitty read this.I shouldnt have said $ but he evidently was in charge of distribution.Yes he was stoned for Blasphemy but why was he in a position to have too debate?And what did he say?
All we know of Stephen is found in Acts of the Apostles, chapters six and seven. It is enough to tell us what kind of man he was:
At that time, as the number of disciples continued to grow, the Hellenist (Greek-speaking) Christians complained about the Hebrew-speaking Christians, saying that their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, ???????It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.??????? The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the Holy Spirit.... (Acts 6:1-5)
Acts says that Stephen was a man filled with grace and power, who worked great wonders among the people. Certain Jews, members of the Synagogue of Roman Freedmen, debated with Stephen but proved no match for the wisdom and spirit with which he spoke. They persuaded others to make the charge of blasphemy against him. He was seized and carried before the Sanhedrin.
In his speech, Stephen recalled God????????s guidance through Israel????????s history, as well as Israel????????s idolatry and disobedience. He then claimed that his persecutors were showing this same spirit. ???????[Y]ou always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors??????? (Acts 7:51b).
His speech brought anger from the crowd. ???????But [Stephen], filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ???????Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God....???????? They threw him out of the city, and began to stone him....As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ???????Lord Jesus, receive my spirit....Lord, do not hold this sin against them??????????????? (Acts 7:55-56, 58a, 59, 60b).
'27,
Thanks for actually looking up the verses.
They are of course two different time periods. Judus was before the resurrection and Steven after the ressurection. I believe that any starting organazation would of had issues like these. The end result is that Men were choosen based on "grace and power" and the issues was dealt with.
I think in the Book of Acts details the starting points of Christanity. Jews have always held a distrust and a disassociation with Gentiles, some of the items, I think were old habits die hard. It was pointed out that this out look was wrong, and they united under Christ.
Stephen in debates with the Roman Freeman, we don't know why. Do you know many Jewish people? The friends I have love to debate, point and counter point. It would be speculation on my part.
I don't understand your position. You implied that Jesus was crucified for the money not being give to the synague, now you are talking about Stephen. Could you please clarify?
Thanks
QUOTE (Happyboy @ Jan 31 2007, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We use more precise measures than just carbon dating now. And yes, it has been proved. It is not 100% accurate but even with a 25% swag in the numbers it still gets you thinking OLD!! Ever heard of physics? We know what we are looking at.
Happyboy,
I'm aware of several of the methods to date items. Proven to who, you seem to have faith in the equipement, sample preperation, calibration, technicians, and data interpitation. I have some faith in it also. So once again, How hot were the sample at their creation? What is the baseline?
Nobody of any intellegence would use a test that has a 25% swag. If the do they shouldn't be talking about proof. I'm sure you were trying to give me some wiggle room. Thanks
I'm aware of Phyics, I worked with 8 PhDs, 3 in Pyhsics, 2 in EE, I forgot what the other 3 did. I am aware that 2 of the 3 are Christians. They had done some testing, they didn't believe the Billion year thing.
What are you looking at?
We don't know how long Adam was alone in the Garden after naming the animals.
We don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden Pre-fall.
We don't know how long Adam and Eve lived before having children.
Homo Sapian has been around how long?? Couple of hundred thousand years, yet we only have a record of langues back around 6,000 years. Traceable to one common langues. We just learned to write, 6,000 years ago.
What did we do for 194,000 years?
We don't know the starting radioactivity level of any of the samples used for dating.
We have only been able to mesure decay rates accuratly for the last say 70 years.
The Speed of Light can be slowed down and up, (Index of Refraction) The just got combined sound wave up to the speed of light.
So what we call a constant has been proven to be manipulated to change speeds.
HHHmmmmm, what are you looking at again?
Look forward to your answers.
Smitty
QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Jan 31 2007, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just read this.Brings more questions to my mind.Dates are important also.What is stated in regards to Paul.Wow is it true?These people dont deny the existence of Jesus just seem to question the portrayal the Bible gives of him.Does that make me an Atheist also?
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm
'27,
Thanks for the link. I have heard the argument before of being Pauls church. Some of the claims that the aurthor makes can and should be discussed. It would take a while for me to read what he says, I believe most current biblicial Scholars have already disproven his points and misinformation. I will look it up.
He calls into question what Jesus said about himself. Mormans, Jehovah Witnesses, Islam, and others have used these types of arguments to reach a certain conlusion to represent their beliefs. In context, they support the historicial claims of Jesus and the Bible.
Are you an Atheist? I don't know, do you believe there is a God? is yes, than Thank God your not. Do you believe in Jesus who died on the cross to pay for your sin? if not, I'm sorry. Do I understand everything in the Bible, of course not. Are there plausable explanations? yes, to some, not to all.
I have some research to do, thanks.
Smitty
QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Jan 31 2007, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And what about the Son of Man debate?
Who was Jesus speaking to on the cross if Jesus is in fact God?
I myself have no doubt in Jesus and God but I highly doubt alot of the Bible.
Who was Jesus speaking to on the cross if Jesus is in fact God?
I myself have no doubt in Jesus and God but I highly doubt alot of the Bible.
'27,
Could you clarify the Son of Man debate?
Jesus was speaking to God the Father, see Trinity for a better understanding.
If you don't doubt Jesus and God, why doubt the record they left for us?
Still reading.
Smitty