Smitty, ok, you asked a few questions, now I'd like to, if that's OK...
1. How long has the earth existed?
2. Please tell me why you believe that there is no other life than on this planet. I'm interested in this aspect of your belief, and if this is based on Christianity.
3. Referring to question 1 - to my knowledge, though it's been quite a few years since I read it, the Bible makes no mention of dinosaurs, Neaderthals and other advanced primates, or other animals which we know once existed through the fossil record. Did these animals walk the earth? With Humans? For how long?
4. Freedom to choose is given to man by God. There are essentially two choices: 1) accept Jesus as your savior and, upon death, go to Heaven, 2) do not, and go to h-e-l-l. What kind of choice is that?
5. The Bible of long past and the Bible today differ by dozens of chapters and thousands of parts. Which Bible is the word of God and what right does man have to edit it?
6. Regarding original sin. If we are all born sinners, will some people go to h-e-l-l simply because they were born in a place or circumstance which never allows them the opportunity to accept Christ?
That's all I have for now...
Marc
Atheism????
QUOTE (Psychosis @ Jan 30 2007, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow Smitty, I've never seen someone post so much, so fast, lol. Ok, I'll take a stab.
1. I didn't know the word "hello" minus the "o" was an expletive, nor the word "dam" plus an "n". Not a hitback, just the annoying filter. That's about all I say, it just makes me look bad when the filter is on, lol.
2. Right by my standards is not always right and I'll admit it. I try to do what I feel is right b/c of how I weigh the setbacks compared to the positiveness of the situation. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. I'd rather make my own decision than make one b/c of fear of punishment. Something I've seen all my life.
3. Most of the negative things I have heard on the bible actually came from a pastor trying to prove his thoughts to me and bringing me a different state of mind. I told him that "insolence is not a thing of virtue" and was never bothered again. The rest came from research I was asked to do in high school for reports, watching documentries, and studying various religions. Oh, and you can't forgot the "Left Behind" book series. I had to read the entire series to pass a class in school. That furthered my statements.
As for honoring thy parents. My dad I will and respect him. He was not religious until not too long ago and I respect that and would never even dare to change his mind. My mother betrayed my family, though religious and weekly churchgoer herself, and I have not spoke to her in quite some time. Something her, nor I has attempted to mend and me moving 1700mi away will further the situation. Honor thy parents; a travesty of an indemnified reach.
4. I say that and think you got a different meaning so I apologize on coolness of religion. I went to school in a place where over 90% of students where in Christian groups for school and such b/c it became a thing of coolness. If you weren't in the clubs then you were side-shadowed and outcasted. Not to mention that the leaders of the clubs, youth groups, etc, were far from any side of Christian which though not a follower, after made me enfurious of the situations.
5. You have a point and I will leave it at that as that was a wide statement. I don't promote atheism as it is a belief that there is nothing possible in creation and that we're here for no reason. I believe myself that there is a reason, but will eventually be proved scientifically.
6. No need to comment. Too many things there go get into.
7. That is a good thing for you. Ever heard of the Christian Childrens Fund? I had to research the organization once and even mailed/emailed people in the organization. The amount they profit rather than use would astound you. Just ask them yourself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and I had to add this about a local church here mainly but several other I know of. One church here has a monthly rummage sale where people sell items to promote the church b/c they're running low on funds. This church recently bought TWO brand new charter buses for private use. Not to mention a mulitmillion dollar renovation/add-on, the minister drives around a Mercedes G-Wagon which is a near hundred thousand dollar vehicle, and he even lives in a house that was donated by the church. But wait, how is it? It is a near $800,000 house and how do I know that?
I have a family member who was the real estate agent. Whether that's given some, though not all churches a bad and spoiled reputation, I think that's a pure crock. Churches are nothing but a money pit. In this area some of the richet people are ministers which is downrate irate to me. Maybe I should be the next L. Ron Hubbard and make up a fictional and retarded story to make millions. By any chance does anyone know what Hubbard said only a few years before founding Scientology? And I quote, "The fastest way to become a millionaire in this country is to start your own religion".
-rant over.
1. I didn't know the word "hello" minus the "o" was an expletive, nor the word "dam" plus an "n". Not a hitback, just the annoying filter. That's about all I say, it just makes me look bad when the filter is on, lol.
2. Right by my standards is not always right and I'll admit it. I try to do what I feel is right b/c of how I weigh the setbacks compared to the positiveness of the situation. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. I'd rather make my own decision than make one b/c of fear of punishment. Something I've seen all my life.
3. Most of the negative things I have heard on the bible actually came from a pastor trying to prove his thoughts to me and bringing me a different state of mind. I told him that "insolence is not a thing of virtue" and was never bothered again. The rest came from research I was asked to do in high school for reports, watching documentries, and studying various religions. Oh, and you can't forgot the "Left Behind" book series. I had to read the entire series to pass a class in school. That furthered my statements.
As for honoring thy parents. My dad I will and respect him. He was not religious until not too long ago and I respect that and would never even dare to change his mind. My mother betrayed my family, though religious and weekly churchgoer herself, and I have not spoke to her in quite some time. Something her, nor I has attempted to mend and me moving 1700mi away will further the situation. Honor thy parents; a travesty of an indemnified reach.
4. I say that and think you got a different meaning so I apologize on coolness of religion. I went to school in a place where over 90% of students where in Christian groups for school and such b/c it became a thing of coolness. If you weren't in the clubs then you were side-shadowed and outcasted. Not to mention that the leaders of the clubs, youth groups, etc, were far from any side of Christian which though not a follower, after made me enfurious of the situations.
5. You have a point and I will leave it at that as that was a wide statement. I don't promote atheism as it is a belief that there is nothing possible in creation and that we're here for no reason. I believe myself that there is a reason, but will eventually be proved scientifically.
6. No need to comment. Too many things there go get into.
7. That is a good thing for you. Ever heard of the Christian Childrens Fund? I had to research the organization once and even mailed/emailed people in the organization. The amount they profit rather than use would astound you. Just ask them yourself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and I had to add this about a local church here mainly but several other I know of. One church here has a monthly rummage sale where people sell items to promote the church b/c they're running low on funds. This church recently bought TWO brand new charter buses for private use. Not to mention a mulitmillion dollar renovation/add-on, the minister drives around a Mercedes G-Wagon which is a near hundred thousand dollar vehicle, and he even lives in a house that was donated by the church. But wait, how is it? It is a near $800,000 house and how do I know that?
I have a family member who was the real estate agent. Whether that's given some, though not all churches a bad and spoiled reputation, I think that's a pure crock. Churches are nothing but a money pit. In this area some of the richet people are ministers which is downrate irate to me. Maybe I should be the next L. Ron Hubbard and make up a fictional and retarded story to make millions. By any chance does anyone know what Hubbard said only a few years before founding Scientology? And I quote, "The fastest way to become a millionaire in this country is to start your own religion".
-rant over.
1. Filters what are you gonna do. Some people now a days have problem with cussing to make a point. I see cussing now as just ignorance of the persons emotions, they are unable to explain or figure out the issue so they just cuss. No worries.
2. Have to agree with you on this one. The only difference between us is I believe that God though the 10 Commandments is the standard of right and wrong. We have a conscience, which should guide us. This is of course further "proof" that God gave us "Free Will".
3. Sorry to hear about the family thing. People fail all the time, forgiveing people of their mistakes makes us healthy also.
4. I see what you mean now. I have also seen some of the things you are talking about. Let me ask you, If I said I was basketball player and wear a uniform. You may believe me, right. But than you saw me on the courts and I couldn't dribble, shoot, layup, etc. Would you think I was still a basketball player or just a bad one? Don't thorw the game out just because of a couple of bad players.
5. You do have a purpose, unfortunatly Science will never tell you what it is. It can only exlain the outcome of events, not why those events occured.
6. My point was leave religion out of any equasion and look at what the Bible has to say and do that. That is Gods words to us. Use that as a guide to see if someone or organazation is actually from God. This of course would mean you would have to know what is in the Bible.
7. One of the things that I've notices is that lots of Charities spend alot of money on fundraising. The larger the org, the more it takes to keep it running. 501(3)c charities have to make avalible to the public their books. They spend roughly 25% of what they bring in on logistical support and fundraising. Actually not that bad. Most of the other meet the bare minimum for the law which is around 45% to the actual thing they are trying to assit.
8. Usally the Elders of the church set the pay scale and such. Rick Warren, Chuck Smith, are two well know pastors and Rick paid back every sent he recieved from his church salary. Chuck Smith doesn't take a salary. There is nothing wrong with having money. I think it a little over the top. I'll take the job for half that
I probably would not go to that church. That money could be better used on religion - widows and ophans.9. Your right god on L ron did say that and he was correct. The down side is what do you tell God when you see him?
I've enjoyed the post.
Smitty
QUOTE (Mjollnir @ Jan 30 2007, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Smitty, ok, you asked a few questions, now I'd like to, if that's OK...
1. How long has the earth existed?
2. Please tell me why you believe that there is no other life than on this planet. I'm interested in this aspect of your belief, and if this is based on Christianity.
3. Referring to question 1 - to my knowledge, though it's been quite a few years since I read it, the Bible makes no mention of dinosaurs, Neaderthals and other advanced primates, or other animals which we know once existed through the fossil record. Did these animals walk the earth? With Humans? For how long?
4. Freedom to choose is given to man by God. There are essentially two choices: 1) accept Jesus as your savior and, upon death, go to Heaven, 2) do not, and go to h-e-l-l. What kind of choice is that?
5. The Bible of long past and the Bible today differ by dozens of chapters and thousands of parts. Which Bible is the word of God and what right does man have to edit it?
6. Regarding original sin. If we are all born sinners, will some people go to h-e-l-l simply because they were born in a place or circumstance which never allows them the opportunity to accept Christ?
That's all I have for now...
Marc
1. How long has the earth existed?
2. Please tell me why you believe that there is no other life than on this planet. I'm interested in this aspect of your belief, and if this is based on Christianity.
3. Referring to question 1 - to my knowledge, though it's been quite a few years since I read it, the Bible makes no mention of dinosaurs, Neaderthals and other advanced primates, or other animals which we know once existed through the fossil record. Did these animals walk the earth? With Humans? For how long?
4. Freedom to choose is given to man by God. There are essentially two choices: 1) accept Jesus as your savior and, upon death, go to Heaven, 2) do not, and go to h-e-l-l. What kind of choice is that?
5. The Bible of long past and the Bible today differ by dozens of chapters and thousands of parts. Which Bible is the word of God and what right does man have to edit it?
6. Regarding original sin. If we are all born sinners, will some people go to h-e-l-l simply because they were born in a place or circumstance which never allows them the opportunity to accept Christ?
That's all I have for now...
Marc
Marc,
All good questions, you of course may not accept my explanations of them but that why people talk.
1. I have no idea. I believe God made it in the seven literal days as the Bible claims. There are two thoughts; one is roughly 10,000 years old the other is Billions of years.
2. I don't think life existed on other planets before I became a Christian. I'll try to hit the high points.
a. Complexity necessary to support life.
b. Time - how long in the secular view did it take life to begin? as the universe expands than other are just further out in time or just starting the clock.
c. No evidence to support aliens claims
d. I believe that there are fallen angles that can take on the appearance of what ever they need to. This of course is based on my Christian understanding.
3. Actually dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible Book of Job. He describes what could be Brontosaurs. I will find the chapter and verse if you want. Advance primates, It clearly says in the Bible that we (Human/Homo sapiens) were made after Gods own image. Neanderthals and the like could be anything. Science is still attempting to show the linkage between them and us. A common decent is the most current I believe. The issue is the lack of transitional fossils in the record. Lucy is the latest. You may have ???????Faith??????? that what these bone fragments from different locations mean that man has evolved. But I don????????t see it.
How long were Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall? I have no Idea.
4. Not much in that simple statement. Fortunately, I believe that it goes much deeper than that.
a. Why did God create us? To have a relationship with us.
b. What are my choices? To have that relationship or reject it.
If you made a computer program that constantly says ???????Marc, you????????re the greatest, I love you.??????? How much meaning would it have? None, it has no choice. Now you have a child, and that child grows up and knows you and says ???????Dad, you????????re the greatest, I love you.??????? How much meaning is there? Now what if the child says ???????Marc, I don????????t believe anything you say and I don????????t want anything to do with you.??????? What now? I pray that does not happen of course.
5. Could you give me some example of the books that were left out and why you think they should have been included? I????????m aware of the Book of Mary, Judas and some of the others and I know why they were not included and when. As far as editing, as we study we get a clearer picture of the meaning of some of the ancient Hebrew text. This is what should be done. Some Bible are a straight, word for word translations, others change the syntax so that it reads easier in modern English. Substance has not changed.
6. I????????ve always loved that question for two reasons. The Bible clearly says that you will know me by creation. Second you will be responsible for what you do know and what you have heard. There is hardly any area on Earth that someone has not gotten to at this point with the Gospel (Good news). In Revelation there is mention of an Angle flying around the world proclaiming the Gospel. This is more up to God to answer when they see him. He????????s judgments are just and merciful.
Enjoying the dialogue,
Smitty
QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Jan 30 2007, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow!Here is what I see $/religion wise.Locally 90% of our catholic schools and churches have been shut down and combined into one big one.Remember all the older people who go everyday to their local church not anymore cant walk 5 miles and nobody pick them up.Younger ones quit once out of school.Not good.Luthern Church built a brand new school.Cant fill it and have some triple combined grades.My kid will not go to a school like that and others obviously think same.Up the road the nondenominational church built.In two years they have expanded 3 times.They ask you for a % but dont push it.They believe in the theory that if you give a dollar you will get 3 in return.Seems to be a good theory because at end of each quarter any balance they have is given away.One time they had a $10000 tab at local gas station you fill up with gas go in to pay and its paid for.No strings attached no form to sign they werent even there.I have also talked to members who were in bad times.They did take care of them totally.Giving it time but I may join them.
I am not a religous historian but I think $ has been a part of religion forever lets take the case of Jesus his Aposles and followers.Was he crucified because of his preaching a way to heaven?I dont think so.Who was the first stoned?Believe it was my namesake Steven.What was his major role?He was the accountant.What does government fear the most?Not getting thier hands in your $.Has always been that way.Well what happens when a large group of people pool thier $ quit thier jobs and go around finding others to do the same are happy and succesful?Government steps in.Did then and does now.
I am not a religous historian but I think $ has been a part of religion forever lets take the case of Jesus his Aposles and followers.Was he crucified because of his preaching a way to heaven?I dont think so.Who was the first stoned?Believe it was my namesake Steven.What was his major role?He was the accountant.What does government fear the most?Not getting thier hands in your $.Has always been that way.Well what happens when a large group of people pool thier $ quit thier jobs and go around finding others to do the same are happy and succesful?Government steps in.Did then and does now.
Now that's a church worth checking out. I don't believe the 3 for 1 deal though, as I've never read that deal in the Bible. Book and Verse would be nice.
We are promised our needs would be meet.Wow, so much misinformation.
Jesus was crucified for Blasphemy. He was betrayed for 30 pieces of Silver.
Stephen was the first one stoned, Judas was the money holder.
Why would God need your money? Aren????????t we supposed to give to Creaser what is Creaser.
Jesus answered Pilot, "My kingdom is not of this earth." He also said to Pilot "You have no authority over me, except what the Father has given you."
Clearly not statements about money. Does a church have the right to collect tithes and offerings, certainly, can they me miss used, see others posting. The Elders should be re evealuated.
Smitty
QUOTE (Happyboy @ Jan 30 2007, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Eh, sorry but i have to disagree. People take the bible way to litterally. Do you really think that Adam and Eve were the first? What about dinosaurs and early man? Please don't say they didin't exist. I would feel so bad for the dinos. Why would a day in the bible be a day to us? It could be a million years as far as we know. There was no one taking notes back then. Its all interpretation of the word and then it was man's choosing what to actually put in the bible. So, again...its not a literal subject, its all based on interpretation and understanding of the message.
Happyboy,
Which parts of the word of God can you take litterly and which ones are subjective?
Adam and Eve were first.
What early man do you reference. I believe Dinosaurs existed, See Book of Job and fossel record.
Everyone uses that Verse out of context. He it is below.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This only shows that God is outside of mans time frame. Verse 3:9 says e is not willing that ANY should perish.
So God cannot inspire man in Writing, Sculpture, Poems, etc.
Thanks
Smitty
-
cannondale27
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
QUOTE (Smitty911 @ Jan 30 2007, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now that's a church worth checking out. I don't believe the 3 for 1 deal though, as I've never read that deal in the Bible. Book and Verse would be nice. We are promised our needs would be meet.
Wow, so much misinformation.
Jesus was crucified for Blasphemy. He was betrayed for 30 pieces of Silver.
Stephen was the first one stoned, Judas was the money holder.
Why would God need your money? Aren????????t we supposed to give to Creaser what is Creaser.
Jesus answered Pilot, "My kingdom is not of this earth." He also said to Pilot "You have no authority over me, except what the Father has given you."
Clearly not statements about money. Does a church have the right to collect tithes and offerings, certainly, can they me miss used, see others posting. The Elders should be re evealuated.
Smitty
We are promised our needs would be meet.Wow, so much misinformation.
Jesus was crucified for Blasphemy. He was betrayed for 30 pieces of Silver.
Stephen was the first one stoned, Judas was the money holder.
Why would God need your money? Aren????????t we supposed to give to Creaser what is Creaser.
Jesus answered Pilot, "My kingdom is not of this earth." He also said to Pilot "You have no authority over me, except what the Father has given you."
Clearly not statements about money. Does a church have the right to collect tithes and offerings, certainly, can they me miss used, see others posting. The Elders should be re evealuated.
Smitty
I think you might be missing my point.Are you saying Judas was the $ holder all the time?Or just the 30 pieces.I wasnt talking of that.What I was talking about was a large group of people banding together and pooling thier $ and resources.That is what Jesus and the Apostles did and it worked.They may have said he was crucified for blasphemy but Pilot wouldnt have been talking to Jesus if it wasnt for $ situation.Some dontt like to hear of Jesus and the Apostles as a group who figured out a way to beat the system.Of course it was much more than that but that is what they did.
QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Jan 30 2007, 09:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you might be missing my point.Are you saying Judas was the $ holder all the time?Or just the 30 pieces.I wasnt talking of that.What I was talking about was a large group of people banding together and pooling thier $ and resources.That is what Jesus and the Apostles did and it worked.They may have said he was crucified for blasphemy but Pilot wouldnt have been talking to Jesus if it wasnt for $ situation.Some dontt like to hear of Jesus and the Apostles as a group who figured out a way to beat the system.Of course it was much more than that but that is what they did.
Cannondale27,
I have never heard of the above explaination.
What supporting Bible versus do you have? Judas carried all the money for the Group. He was also stealing money from them as well.
13 people don't make a group big enough for Rome to worry about. The Jews under Roman law were not allowed to Kill anyone. That was left for the Roman Goverment to do. Please re-read the following.
Matthew 27:11-32
Mark 32:43 -15:21
Luke 22:47 -23:25
John 18:28 -19:15
Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. www.Blueletterbible.com it will give you a lookup to chapter and verse to go straight to them.
It clearly says why he was cruified. Money had nothing to do with it.
Look forward to your explaination.
Smitty
QUOTE (haydug @ Jan 30 2007, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One could argue about why God would let children starve? If there is truley a god, why punish an innocent child?
I think punishment to the parents who know beforehand they cannont support a child would be in order. Maybe God should make them steril. No, I'm not talking about the welfare fraud commited daily in this country. I'm talking about the general welfare of children. The suffering of a child is ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the "christian" fund that will help save the children, while only skimming about 40% of the funds collected for themselves. 20% for future adveretising. Then probably 20% for legal fees etc. So, the starving children of the world get a whopping 20%. GO figure
Why is there so much killing in the bible? It appears that if anyone had a disagreement, there was a killing spree to make the weak believe in the strong's theories.
I think punishment to the parents who know beforehand they cannont support a child would be in order. Maybe God should make them steril. No, I'm not talking about the welfare fraud commited daily in this country. I'm talking about the general welfare of children. The suffering of a child is ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the "christian" fund that will help save the children, while only skimming about 40% of the funds collected for themselves. 20% for future adveretising. Then probably 20% for legal fees etc. So, the starving children of the world get a whopping 20%. GO figure
Why is there so much killing in the bible? It appears that if anyone had a disagreement, there was a killing spree to make the weak believe in the strong's theories.
Doug,
I would like to address your question in more detail than I currently have time for. I should have something substantial by Wed evening. The questions you asked are the main ones that Atheist talk about.
Smitty
-
cannondale27
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Jan 30 2007, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Smitty I cant argue against the Bible but I do not believe everything in there was all that accurate or unbiased.I do think Jesus had alot more than 13 people around him.
I guess I was wrong in Judas role.Since you are obviously well versed in what Bible says.
I guess I was wrong in Judas role.Since you are obviously well versed in what Bible says.
Cannondale27,
Why do you think it wasn't accurate? Obviously they were baised, but does that change the recorded history of those events.
Jesus and 12 disciples in most of the stories these are the ones talked about. Sermon on the Mount and a couple of other there were large groups of people. The pharisee's noticed that alot of people were talking and following him. But just those 13 are talked about the most. Of course there was Mary Magnaline and Mary Jesus mother.
"Since you are obviously well versed in what Bible says."
Hardley, I had to look it all up.
Did you get the chance to read those sections? It throws some light on the events. Take that and the local political, religious leaders statements and you have quite the consperacy.If anyone is following these discussions, I would ask that if a Bible verse is quoted, that you please READ IT and make sure what I'm saying is what is in the Bible. If not PLEASE CORRECT ME!!
Smitty