Take the Falicon chalange.

[Happyboy]

QUOTE (wistech @ Mar 3 2007, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Going by the up to date results say I get a phone call from some drag racer who's looking to compete with Jap quads that are pushing 35 to 40 pounds of torque and 50 to 60hp what am I to tell them ?

I agree with that one. But doesn't Falicon now have a super stroker? Hmmm....you need to test that one now.

If someone is looking for absolute max power then yeah, Tim's squezzes on bye. Not my much though...2-4% greater? I have seen dyno charts fluctuate soooo much its really hard to say what is best over the long term. If we are really looking at a 1-2 hp or torque difference we can't call that on dyno runs that were months, even days or weeks apart. Dynos are not that accurate from run to run. You can get pretty good comparative runs on the same day. Next day pretty good if the weather is the same. But definately not months apart. If its a few hp then yeah, call it a winner but you can't just say it beat it by 3 or 4 hp. You can only say it beat it. Even if its the same dyno it does change.

Is the Falicon the best? no. But what happens when Tim is gone? People still want a new crank with improved balance and reliability...there is falicon.

[Happyboy]

QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Mar 3 2007, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Timbo stroker/Falicon stroker

If owners are satisfied with thier cranks from Falicon then that is all that matters.BUT think about future owners who have a choice.If they dont know the positives and negatives they will not have a informed buying decision.

FALICON ................................................................................
........TIMBO STROKER
Positives(some unproven).................................................................Positi
ves
______________________..........................................................
.______________________________
Balanced supposedly better than balanced stock...............................Balanced run very smooth
Better bearing than ripsaw bearing..................................................Bigger better bearing than Falicon
Bronze bushing rod........................................................................Bronz
e Bushing rod
More HP/torque than stock............................................................More torque and hp(slightly) than Falicon
................................................................................
.....................Cost Much less $ Best warantee ever

NEGATIVES(on some but not all).....................................................NEGATIVES (on some but not all)
_________________________......................................................_
_______________________________
unbalanced(vibration)...........................................................
.........A couple crank halves have cracked
More than .003 out of sync.............................................................Have a Waiting list
Crankplate bearing fit too tight
sloppy fit of drive,timing gear splines
crankpin failures ?unconfirmed Derno,Cannondalerider
Can crack when rebuilding
Short rods on some must use custom piston
Shorter rod than stock even with correct rod(has not proven to be issue)
Price
Feel free to post corrections to this comparison but I think it is fair comparison and folks can decide.Either is WAY better than stock.

Come on steve....thats not biases at all? lol

Timbo does not balance the cranks...neither does brad....or me....or anyone else even. He cleans up the rough casting marks and does get better vibs from it. He knows what works from trial and error, not from balancing.

Does a bigger bearing equal a better bearing? You know better. So, Falicon's bearing is just as good as the Z400 unless otherwise proven.

The fit and finish of it is blown out of proportion too. Sloppy fit? Maybe the guy that built that one drank a beer. Who knows. Mine fit great. The crank plate side race was way too tight...but who cares? You can get it on and off. Heck, mine fit with no shims necessary.

Cracking when rebuilding? Um, don't rebuild it then. Any time you mess with a crank you risk damageing it. I know from experience on that one. If you are worried about rebuilding a $1000 crank then send it to people that know how to do it. Problem solved. If I recall Tim knows exactly what caused it to crack...hindsight is 40/40.

Short rods wasn't their fault. New cranks don't have that problem. They offered to fix the problem free of charge when it was discovered but some people were too **** lazy to take the cranks out and send them there.

How is a shorter rod than stock a problem? Its a stroker, its what they do. Tim's should have a shorter rod also, but instead he choose to go the easier route and shave the piston. Not a problem as long as we have someone to shave the pistons.

Cranks being out of sync? All depends on the builder. Some of Tim's have been out of sync after welding. And he took care of it.

Stop nit picking things that happen on all cranks and all builders. I really can't beleive that we are going to sit here and bash a company that did something we asked for.

[wistech]

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 3 2007, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with that one. But doesn't Falicon now have a super stroker? Hmmm....you need to test that one now.

If someone is looking for absolute max power then yeah, Tim's squezzes on bye. Not my much though...2-4% greater? I have seen dyno charts fluctuate soooo much its really hard to say what is best over the long term. If we are really looking at a 1-2 hp or torque difference we can't call that on dyno runs that were months, even days or weeks apart. Dynos are not that accurate from run to run. You can get pretty good comparative runs on the same day. Next day pretty good if the weather is the same. But definately not months apart. If its a few hp then yeah, call it a winner but you can't just say it beat it by 3 or 4 hp. You can only say it beat it. Even if its the same dyno it does change.

I cant speak for your dyno results but after running this dynojet and seeing how accurate it has been year after year run after run I have complete faith in its results. When I do each change we run a series of 3 to 4 runs in a row for comparison to just to verify the data. The only variances that I ever see is very marginal due to the engine heating up as the runs continue. The dyno room at mikes cycles also has environmental controls to stabilize the atmosphere so the weather doesnt affect it.

I accept the chalange to build a Super stroker Falicon. When are you going to send one up? Maybe that one will be able to at least match or beat a stock crank.

[wistech]

Here's a consistent dyno.
Run 8 is before the final mapping change.
Run 9 was the warm up run to get the engine to operating temp and the iac to 205.
9 through 13 were taken right after each other in the span of 2 minutes to verify results. Even with the engine getting hotter and hotter look how close each run is.
And for those who dont believe in the power of dyno tuning that engine just gained around 2 hp with one mapping change of many.

[cannondale27]

I dont think its biased at all.Really.

QUOTE (Happyboy @ Mar 3 2007, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on steve....thats not biases at all? lol

Timbo does not balance the cranks...neither does brad....or me....or anyone else even. He cleans up the rough casting marks and does get better vibs from it. He knows what works from trial and error, not from balancing. EVERY STYLE OF CRANK HAS BEEN TO THE BALANCER FROM TIMBO

Does a bigger bearing equal a better bearing? You know better. So, Falicon's bearing is just as good as the Z400 unless otherwise proven.IF BIGGER IT SPREADS LOAD OVER A BIGGER AREA

The fit and finish of it is blown out of proportion too. Sloppy fit? Maybe the guy that built that one drank a beer. Who knows. Mine fit great. The crank plate side race was way too tight...but who cares? You can get it on and off. Heck, mine fit with no shims necessary.ITS MORE THAN ONE.HOW MANY MISSED THE LOOSE GEARS AND THOSE THAT NEED SHIMMING ITS A MAJOR PAIN

Cracking when rebuilding? Um, don't rebuild it then. Any time you mess with a crank you risk damageing it. I know from experience on that one. If you are worried about rebuilding a $1000 crank then send it to people that know how to do it. Problem solved. If I recall Tim knows exactly what caused it to crack...hindsight is 40/40. SO FALICON GETS MORE $?SHOPS HERE CHARGE $40-75 FOR A REBUILD PLUS PARTS IF THEY CANT DO IT FALICON CHARGES LOT MORE

Short rods wasn't their fault. New cranks don't have that problem. They offered to fix the problem free of charge when it was discovered but some people were too **** lazy to take the cranks out and send them there.WHAT DO YOU MEAN?THEY ARE EXPERTS AND HAD A MOTOR THERE IT WAS THIER SCREWUP MOST WOULDNT HAVE BEEN SO LAZY IF IT WERE FIXED FOR FREE LIKE IT SHOULD HAVE

How is a shorter rod than stock a problem? Its a stroker, its what they do. Tim's should have a shorter rod also, but instead he choose to go the easier route and shave the piston. Not a problem as long as we have someone to shave the pistons.NOT EASIER ROUTE WAS DONE BECAUSE A SHORTER ROD PUTS MORE STRESS ON PIN AND BEARING.ANY SHOP CAN SHAVE A PISTON ITS A VERY EASY PROCESS

Cranks being out of sync? All depends on the builder. Some of Tim's have been out of sync after welding. And he took care of it.HE CHECKS THEM BEFORE THEY ARE DELIVERED TO CUSTOMERS NOT AFTER

Stop nit picking things that happen on all cranks and all builders. I really can't beleive that we are going to sit here and bash a company that did something we asked for.

THEY MADE CRANKS BECAUSE THEY MADE $ DOING IT.DID NOT DO ANYONE ANY FAVORS SO WE OWE THEM NOTHING

[wistech]

Timbo will be redynoing Bradies quad . Hopefully it some new mods will get results.

[timbomoose]

Happy I need to correct some of your "FACTS".

"Tim does not ballance his cranks"
Fact everycrank made is machined for better balance which is ballancing accept for the early style crank which are already good from the factory.This is not done from a stab in the dark but done from originals of every version spun ballanced than machining process copied until getting correct than machined the same everytime after to the same
identical sizes.This is the exact same thing falicon is doing. Does this make everyone crank perfect no, but the majority of them extremely good.

Tim had cranks go out of sink after welding. Yes, this does happen from time to time,but none have EVER made it out of the shop out of sink.I know this for a fact.Every crank sent out has been in tolerance.

Tim had one falicon crank crack when rebuilding and knows the cause. Yes,can't do anything about the cracking because the webbing is very thin for pressing apart so I won't rebuild them anymore.The crank is designed very strong for running purposes,but very week for rebuilding purposes(pressing apart).I had a special fixture I made for doing them and one still cracked.The only thing I could have done more is extreme heat. I ate the crank free of charge to the customer and replaced the crank volunteerly. I did two others problem free, but 2 out of three isn't good odds so I chose not to work on anymore because I can't afford to buy a 1000 dollar crank for a 1 out of 3 chance for a 100 dollar rebuild.

"Does a bigger bearing equal a better bearing?"IF BIGGER IT SPREADS LOAD OVER A BIGGER AREA Fact. Happyboy you answered this one yourself, it is better.

"How is a shorter rod than stock a problem? Its a stroker, its what they do. Tim's should have a shorter rod also, but instead he choose to go the easier route and shave the piston. Not a problem as long as we have someone to shave the pistons"

Fact. Its not the easier route its the BETTER ROUTE when going with a rebuilt crank,its cheaper for customers that have good rods in their cranks,it gives better leverage for more performance,and longer piston life.The downfall is you either need a piston with an offset wristpin or shave your existing one and if your crank went you need a piston anyways and if you wore out your old one and need a new one the price is the same for stock wrist pin location or offset.Piston shaving is free with price of stocker crank and only $25 if sent in for shaving.Any competant machine shop can shave a piston and valve pockets I've even supplied a piston print for people wanted one

Fact. Falicon tolereance problems.This IS 1st hand from what I personally dealt with. EVERY falicon that I personally installed was not made correctly.The side clearance on everyone of them was huge. Micing them showed them to be made incorrectly, too short. No big deal shims are required. Shaft on output side was made too big where pressing the race off is required. One output shaft was made .002 bigger than original and the bearing race would not fit onto the bearing becuase spread out from too big of a shaft. I took off bearing and ground shaft to correct size and problem solved. Another I rejected and sent back because the splines were cut greatly undersized. I could move the gear up and down .015 thats HUGE slop. They gave me a hard time for sending back but eventually did take care of the problem and apologized what else can you ask for from a company they took care of the problem. Another sent back because was so out of balance it shook the ground standing next to it and they did not take care of until sent back by another person "wistech". Another speed1b's splines were cut out of round and a little,but we let go because was borderline and was only using for drag racing not a high hour machine this will cuase premature timing chain wear. Two that I split apart the holes were out of location from half to half. One .0015 other .002 making the best you can true was the max limits. Another sent up was eating flywheel bearings.Crank half holes were also made wrong and had to over press the bottom half together to make it with in max limits.Had to press the bottom in .005 to reach max limits not the correct way of doing things but only choice besides new crank. All except for the last crank I put in had too large of a radius in the corner so the gear would not press in all the way. Only 2 cranks that I put in had less than .003 runout brand new. This is all 1st hand by me in my experierence that I worked with. ALOT of their cranks do have sloppy workmanship. For anotherone a Yamaha crank they made was made wrong and causing piston to hit the head. All 1st hand.I contacted falicon about the issues and they said send a list and they'll try to make changes in future batches which any good company would do after knowing problems. Without feedback they can't help what they don't know and I did see they fixed the radius problem on the last crank I recieved so they do listen. I for one want falicon to keep making cranks, becuase I cannot keep up with the demand and it gives people more options. Simple inpections can be made before assembly and then they'll take care of problems once they're run you're on your own.

I do agree that wistech and 27 are little too harsh on their wording at times and just need to word things better like saying in a max performance standpoint which wistech did corrected himself. You have to understand Wistech is always looking for every bit of power and to him its a problem but to most its not. You are also correct in saying we shouldn't bash companies. I think you need to contact the company 1st with your problem to give them a chance.Alot of times problems aren't know unless heard abut. Absolutely no one is perfect,but if a company doesn't care and does't fix there problems or even acknowledge there's an issue after contacted people do have the right to know.

[GDITheman]

You guys are way over my head on this. I just want my Falicon to last for a long time. I don't ride to the extreme as most of you. I hit the MX track and couple times a year and ride trails half a dozen times. I don't baby my quad. I ride it like I stole it. I just want it to last. If it's a couple ft-pounds less than something else, then OK. If it fails more often, then **** it. I want parts that last and if I can hp in the process, then I'm even happier.

I could have had Falicon put the new rod in, but I wanted to give Tim all the business I could to support him and to have 1 stop shopping.

I'm glad you guys look into the issues in this detail. You guys have kept the quads running this long. I agree that maybe some of this needs to be simplified and clarified so we don't cause a panic.

PS- I hope mine wasn't the crank that cracked.

[wistech]

Looks like we are getting off topic here. This thread is about getting the most power out of a Falicon cranked engine not how long they last or how much they cost. Has anyone else a dynoed one to add to the data list? Any more ideas on how to compensate for the design? Whats the highest compresion piston ever put in one?

[kdeal]

John, I will dyno mine when we get to Ohio or PA this year. I want to refresh it and double check the cam timing.