Cams...
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cannondale27
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
We all really havent been talking much about the single springs we are running because we are AMAZED that they are holding up.Its amazing absolutely no signs of floating at all.Got to really give Crower credit for thinking out of box on that one and Pete for being first.Pretty much if Timbos look good once again I know what route I am taking from now on.Heck maybe even the crummy stocker cams will survive if Coated buckets,single valvesprings and a low rev limit are used.
Pete, I wasn't referring to your numbers. I was just throwing that back out there as many people forget that a measured gain is only relative to the configuration it was tested on.
As for hardwelded cams. I have always heard about problems with them. I really would like to run them but won't until we see evidence of longevity in our setups. I would also be wary of running a much lower spring pressure than stock. Now, if an engineer studied our setup and came to that conclusion and wanted to work on testing then thats another story. We have seen too many times around this community how people with years of experience in quads go and hoke things up on our quads just because they are different.
As for hardwelded cams. I have always heard about problems with them. I really would like to run them but won't until we see evidence of longevity in our setups. I would also be wary of running a much lower spring pressure than stock. Now, if an engineer studied our setup and came to that conclusion and wanted to work on testing then thats another story. We have seen too many times around this community how people with years of experience in quads go and hoke things up on our quads just because they are different.
QUOTE (peterock @ Jul 29 2008, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yup, sounds about right. Did you talk to Dan?
Look at any dyno charts of a stock motor, HP numbers start dropping big time by the 11.5 mark. You should be shifting anyway. I don't think anyone that has been running the single valve springs has had a cam wear issue as the lighter pressure makes sense that it will be easier on the cam lobes. I would take cam life and higher hp over a higher rev limiter any day.
As for the hardening, I will only send out cams that needed to hard welded so the hardening isn't an issue. There are plenty of junk cams out there that we don't need to be using good stock cams to be reground. They have 50+ years I believe of working with cams so if Dan himself tells me that we don't need to worry about the hardness with his welding process I'm going to take his word for it. My cams, while they may not look the pretiest, have held up great.
Look at any dyno charts of a stock motor, HP numbers start dropping big time by the 11.5 mark. You should be shifting anyway. I don't think anyone that has been running the single valve springs has had a cam wear issue as the lighter pressure makes sense that it will be easier on the cam lobes. I would take cam life and higher hp over a higher rev limiter any day.
As for the hardening, I will only send out cams that needed to hard welded so the hardening isn't an issue. There are plenty of junk cams out there that we don't need to be using good stock cams to be reground. They have 50+ years I believe of working with cams so if Dan himself tells me that we don't need to worry about the hardness with his welding process I'm going to take his word for it. My cams, while they may not look the pretiest, have held up great.
How much time would you say you have on the Crower cams?
QUOTE (thedeatons @ Jul 29 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wouldn't it be interesting to send a Crower cam to Timbo for a hardness test? That would be pretty definitive!
Timbo told me the buckets need to be 54-56 on the "C" scale. The cam lobes need to be 58-62 on the "C" scale.
Timbo told me the buckets need to be 54-56 on the "C" scale. The cam lobes need to be 58-62 on the "C" scale.
It actually wouldn't be definitive. Hardness isn't the only thing to go by. The type of metal is going to play a factor as well. My cams were hardness tested. I don't remember the exact numbers but they were in the 50's.
as for total time on them I would only be guessing. Steve had them in his for a short time and they have been in mine since last summer. I don't have time to ride a whole lot but any wear would have been shown by now.
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cannondale27
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
QUOTE (Happyboy @ Jul 29 2008, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pete, I wasn't referring to your numbers. I was just throwing that back out there as many people forget that a measured gain is only relative to the configuration it was tested on.
As for hardwelded cams. I have always heard about problems with them. I really would like to run them but won't until we see evidence of longevity in our setups. I would also be wary of running a much lower spring pressure than stock. Now, if an engineer studied our setup and came to that conclusion and wanted to work on testing then thats another story. We have seen too many times around this community how people with years of experience in quads go and hoke things up on our quads just because they are different.
As for hardwelded cams. I have always heard about problems with them. I really would like to run them but won't until we see evidence of longevity in our setups. I would also be wary of running a much lower spring pressure than stock. Now, if an engineer studied our setup and came to that conclusion and wanted to work on testing then thats another story. We have seen too many times around this community how people with years of experience in quads go and hoke things up on our quads just because they are different.
What kind of fairytale land are you in?Nobody has $30000 or more to do a engineering study.Best engineers are the ones doing the testing right now.Us.The engineers had thier chance and it failed. This has been a test for over a year now.Not recommending the single springs to anyone but dont discount them just because some desk jockey doesnt approve.Time and time again real world testing has proven them wrong.Just saying the old route of stiff springs and shimming stock springs is definitly not panning out to solve anything since we have gone 180deg different and had better results so far.
QUOTE (cannondale27 @ Jul 29 2008, 08:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What kind of fairytale land are you in?Nobody has $30000 or more to do a engineering study.Best engineers are the ones doing the testing right now.Us.The engineers had thier chance and it failed. This has been a test for over a year now.Not recommending the single springs to anyone but dont discount them just because some desk jockey doesnt approve.Time and time again real world testing has proven them wrong.Just saying the old route of stiff springs and shimming stock springs is definitly not panning out to solve anything since we have gone 180deg different and had better results so far.
Wow, steve flying off the handle...shocker
Steve, thats my point. No engineer is going to do this on our quads now. If people want to do hard welded cams then fine, go ahead and do it. We all know there is a large risk of cam failure with hard welded cams, so we take that risk upon ourselves.
I didn't really say they are bad so don't use them. I just stated I would be wary, cautious in using them because of the history of the dale. How many people jumped right on the kibblewhites or the last group of hard welded cams? Do you guys really think Crower is going to stand by his product when someone drops a valve or their cams wear out? I am **** happy, hehe, that Pete has had good luck with his and saw power gains. Its cool as heck that you are running a single spring with ti valves. I wish I could play around as well but I just can't.
Oh, and problems with hardwelded cams are not just a cannondale thing. Many quads out there have the same problems. I think its much like one of you said above, they don't care about hardness and when its too close to the same hardness of the buckets then boom, one of them give.
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m_mcgranahan
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- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
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m_mcgranahan
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:41 pm
Hi,
One the single spring thing, I have to admit that I am a bit hesitant to risk that even with the rev set to 10.5K Is there a way to get a slighlty stronger single spring just to make sure I dont regret it? I saw some behive springs on the crower website and that made me wonder what those could do for us if we could find the right size ones?
THanks
GOd bless...
Mark
One the single spring thing, I have to admit that I am a bit hesitant to risk that even with the rev set to 10.5K Is there a way to get a slighlty stronger single spring just to make sure I dont regret it? I saw some behive springs on the crower website and that made me wonder what those could do for us if we could find the right size ones?
THanks
GOd bless...
Mark